GeoSmart Premium 3

I am currently without heat (6 days and counting) in southern VT for the second time in 2 years. This is the third failure of the system in the last 3 years. In the third failure, we went 14 days with no hot water in March 2009.

What is particularly disturbing is that 2 of the failures were identical: freon leak in the reversing valve. The third was a fried mother board on the water to water unit.

We installed a Water Furnace Synergy3 in 2006. The table below shows the dates of the failures, my cost out of pocket, and what the “10 year” warrantee did for me, the failure and days out of service.


Date | My Cost | WF Warantee | Failure | Days out of service
1/2008 | $975.58 | 1 part | reversing valve| 10
3/2009 | $1122.90 | nothing | motherboard | 14
11/2009 | TBD | TBD | reversing valve| 6 n’counting


Form my experience the problems Water Furnace faces are as follows:

• Part distribution takes way to long. FW Webb does not stock the parts. They – mostly – are shipped from Canada. Waiting is the majority of the down time.

FWIW I went 10 days with out heat in VT in January when the wind chill hit 20 below zero. 14 days with out hot water forced me to drop in an electric hot water heater. And early this week – without heat – temps dropped to 15 degrees.

• The 10 year warrantee is a fairy tale. 3 failures within 3 years have resulted in zero labor coverage and no electrical parts (mother board in my case). One reversing valve was provided; another is expected.

• There is a serious design – or manufacturing - flaw in the reversing valve. 2 identical failures within 2 years is simply unacceptable. My current failure is a leak in the same spot on the same part.

So what lessons do we have for those considering alternative energies:

1. Design backups into you system. I dropped in an electric hot water heater to backup the water to water unit. A wood stove backs up the water to air unit. I am considering electric base board so I am not trapped in the house thru these outages. And a refrigeration contractor backs up my installer (who left the country last year).
2. Double any advertised “pay-back” period. At this pace (3 failures in 3 years) my unit will NEVER pay for itself. Also need to add the costs of installing and operating the required back-up.
3. Don’t rely on the warrantee. It probably won’t be there when you need it.

I’ll be curious to see what labor is covered by WaterFurnance for my current outage … but I am not holding my breath.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Where did you buy this unit and who installed it?

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

New England Ground Source (Dave Cardill) did the install in 2006. Then left the state (VT) for Canada. Needless to say, service has been lacking (been using a refrigeration contractor ever since).

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Is this the company you bought the Synergy3 from or did you purchase elsewhere?

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

New England Ground Source did the purchase and the install.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

The 18 month warranty you have is a commercial parts only warranty. That unit must have been purchased through a commercial distributor as that warranty is not available to residential dealers.

Residential dealers have the option of the following warranty:
10 year parts & labor
5 year parts & labor
1 year parts only (5 year compressor)

Your warranty depends on who you buy from and agreed term at purchase.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

I emailed WF to determine if I have the 18mo, 5yr or 10yr warranty. Was told I had 10 yr by my installer. Mailed in my cards upon install; the stub i am left with makes no reference to the duration.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

WF will know who purchased the unit and the warranty duration. Sounds like Your installer was less than reputable, I guess that's why he went to left town.

 

Sorry for your luck,

but in thirty plus years I have been servicing and installing heat pumps I have never had a reversing valve leak. I have had pilot tubes clog and pistons get stuck but never a leak from Sporlan, Alco, Parker-Hanifin or anyone else.

A skilled refrigeration service tech should be able to braze in the new part to be leak free.

Micro electronics are what they are and do not like applications of voltage other then those they where designed to receive.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

I don't have your depth of service experience but agree with you. Reversing valves aren't unique to geo, there are 10s of millions in service - every air source heat pump has one.

Last I checked they cost about $200 and a competent tech ought to be able to swap one out in 2-4 hours.

Some care must be taken while brazing one in so as not to damage its internals with torch heat.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

FWIW I took a picture of the failed valve from January 2008. Identical leak in the same place Nov 2009. Let me know if anyone wants to see it (I can email it) .... tried to copy it into this thread (doesn't seem to take). The leak is not on the installers soder/joint.

 

On the other hand

I shudder to think about all the parts I have seen bad out of the box.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Tell us a little about the installer. What % of his business was geo? If he purchased the equipment through the commercial division, he may not truly be a WF dealer. Warranties are legal obligations as long as all the terms are met. Is there no other WF dealer in your area or at least a geo pro. Your refrigeration guy could be good and well intended but with out geo background he could be fixing symptoms vs actual problems. That he's buying parts direct from component manufacturer vs waterfurnace will void warranties as well. If WF has no other reps in the area geo pros can sometimes get them to honor warranties anyway if they demonstrate reasonable proficiency (are igshpa certified etc.). Check igshpa list for a certified contractor near you.
Also about the design of the system. Most chronic failures are the result of bad installations. Can you tell us your homes heat loss, size of the unit, duct and radiant delivery capacities, hot water consumption?
Your failures do look out of the ordinary, perhaps we can find the cause instead of repeatedly repairing the effects.
Good luck,
Joe

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Got lesson in the WF warranty process: WF warrantees the equipment they manufacture and assemble for 10 years. My two pieces were manufactured by GeoSmart and assembled by Waterfurance. So any equipment issues need to be warranteed by GeoSmart (wish I knew this back in March - motherboard failure - might have saved a few bucks). Called GeoSmart ... thier warrantee is 1 year external; 5 years internal; 10 years major refrigeration.

Dave Cardill is second generation Geothermal ... his father is big in the Ottawa area. Dave was featured in a PBS segment featuring Geothermal around the time I was shopping this job. Price was not my biggest concern although a similar job was quoted around 30k with a sales rep involved. Cardill does his own "sales"; so I reasoned that I was saving a few $$ (~6k) cutting out the middle man (not sacraficing quality ... or so I thought). Would this have been different with some sales support ... maybe (I'ld have had another advocate).

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Here’s a update … the new rep came out to the house late last week. Tweaked a few things on the system: it was over charged with Freon (as a result of the reversing valve repair); increased water flow; one dip switch was not to his liking. Said there are some install issues … most glaring was I need to cut in an expansion tank prior to the radiant tubes.

As far as the reversing valve failures: these were manufacturing faults in his opinion. The condenser was seen to vibrate the system too much. Over time – he speculates – the weak link on the reversing valves lets go (happened to me twice in two years). So he loosened the 3 bolts anchoring the compressor and shimmed it away from the floor. The vibration was significantly reduced.

The water to water unit is still tripping out with an “FP”. Running on the electric hot water tank for now. He has some ideas to share the water between the units. Needs to come back this week. He’ll also install the electric “backup” panel. My original installer insisted he “never” installs them. The new rep “always” installs them. I’ve learned a back-up. is a must (not a luxury).

Stay tuned

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

I currently have a system with a FP fault on a water-water. Client has all the remote monitoring equipment as his son is in that game, and we've noted a different reading for the unit that we're picking up on the return line. It's not the "obvious" reasons for a FP fault. Looks to be a shorted thermistor or main board.

I've ordered a bunch of parts as backup before heading out to the site as it is pretty remote. We'll see what it turns out to be.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

If you put an accurate temp probe on the liquid line near the FP you can pull the FP and read temp. The unit faults 30 seconds after it sees 15F + or - 2F (closed loop). Replace the FP if it is not accurate. Also have found loose yellow wires (FP) in the mollex as they lock in place. To check simply pull on the yellow leads at the molex connector if they are locked you won't be able to pull them free.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Here’s an update … Waterfurnace paid for the reversing valve and repair ($603); received the check today. Paid my repair man last month.

After the new rep tweaked the unit, it was locking out on high pressure and low water. So the rep - still trouble shooting the unit - suggested running the unit without the radiant tubes. So the unit is running just the FHA side. No further problems. Plenty of hot air … no lock outs. Electric back-up also install and operating.

The expansion tank has been added to the radiant tube side. I am resigned to running only the FHA thru the winter. Then start messing with the radiant tube side in March/April. The radiant tubes are in an unfinished basement slab; not really critical to heating the house. We leave the house for extended periods so lockouts are a PITA.

And the water to water unit is still OFF due to FP lockouts … running an electric hot water heater. This might change after I see the new reps bill … and the electric bill. Until then, one of the three units is what I have.

 

I cry reading these posts

It does not have to be this way.

I would love to see the near radiant piping.

 

Re: WaterFurnace Synergy3

Mark,

I'll email you photos ... what would you like to see "near radiant tubes" (??)