Illinois GEO Replacement

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by thelinuxfan, Oct 2, 2015.

  1. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member


    I am looking to replace a 3 ton ClimateMaster unit. It is 15 years old and the stage 2 compressor died. I have found out recently it has died twice previously with past owners of the home. I have had a few load calcs done and am being told a 2 ton Bosch SM024 will do the trick just fine. I have also been told the 3 ton unit was undersized and I should look at a 4 ton unit. I am attaching one of the load calcs performed on my home.

    I have about 1800 sqft on main level with an equal sized basement of which 1600 sqft is finished.

    I am unsure right now as to the type of loop installed and am trying to determine the specifications.

    Another note is I had very low electricity bills and never had any trouble keeping the temperature at a steady 72 all year long before the compressor died (which was two years).

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



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  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Your load calcs show a heating demand of 38,000 btu's/hr under design temps.

    1 ton = 12,000 btu's
    so 3 tons seems fine.

    A 2-speed unit would be good as well. Your cooling load is shown at about 16,000 btu's.
  3. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    Thanks urthbuoy. I agree a 3 ton unit seems to be well suited; however, I do have one gentleman recommending a 2 ton unit for the house. I feel that is undersized, but I just wanted to see if anyone else had an opinion on it.
  4. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    A 2-ton, at 60%sh of heating load, would function. With the understanding you need supplemental heat more often. Your airflow may also be a little lacking if you already have poor airflow to distant rooms.

    You have a history of 3-ton working fine. So I would need to see more justification to vote for a 2-ton myself.
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Stick to what worked well for you. You seem to have the infrastructure there to support 3 tons of capacity.
    Be aware that the HPs are rated for cooling with 12,000 BTUs per ton, but dual stage units usually only put out about 9,600 BTUs/ton for heating, +/- a couple thousand BTUs depending on the model. Thus a 2-ton unit is a bit small with less than 19,000 BTUs/h capacity.
  6. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    Thanks. I have decided to go with a 3 ton unit. My next question is what should I expect for price. I have tried to educate myself to identify a skilled tech, but I am still baffled by differences in total cost. I have received a proposal for a 3ton Carrier replacement at $8,000 and a 3ton Bosch for $14,000. The services are all from the same area, so why is there such a large difference in price?
  7. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Comparing apples to apples can be tough.

    Look at warranty, variable speed (blower, compressor, pumps?), controls, etc. Easy to go cheap. Easy to get too expensive.
  8. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    Is it normal to request a complete bill of materials before the project begins? It seems odd that I am having trouble obtaining at least the major components model numbers before beginning. I understand not having a complete inventory of consumables.
  9. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You won't get a complete bill of materials generally. Because frankly, I don't know everything I'm going to use on your jobsite for example. But I do know $100 for brass fittings should cover my 2" connections (as a made up example).

    But you should know at least the model number of your proposed units and their options the installer is proposing.
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We itemize our quotes with model numbers for the major components, since it adds transparency to the quote and the customers know where the money goes, and what they are buying. Tanks, flow centers, thermostats too. But this is where it usually ends. Some things change during the building process.
  11. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We do as doc describes, including AHRI certificate #s and efficiency ratings with a note about how rating conditions differ from expected operating conditions.

    LinuxFan, faced with the need to replace HVAC system, might want to look at what weatherization options, low hanging fruit, might be available to bring load down. The best ton of capacity is the one not needed, not purchased, not installed and not operated.
  12. Look. We provide complete quotes broken down to be 100% transparent. The reason most contractors don't want to do this is so that the consumer cant do the math to figure out the profit we make in this industry.
    But I have found that most people who are serious about purchasing these systems usually do not have issues with our profit if we educate them and show them with complete transparency.

    I will say that the BOSCH SM is a variable speed 2 stage scroll compressor unit that is manufactured by FHP. Carrier also has their machine manufactured in the same FHP plant in Ft. Lauderdale on the same assembly line. But when I was on a factory tour on 9/14/15, I noticed all of the Carrier units were using reciprocating compressors with units that were very low on the EER scale. So I would be very careful of the CARRIER quote as he may be quoting a lesser of a product than the BOSCH SM036. Plus with the Bosch you get a 10 year parts and labor warranty right out of the box and would even qualify for an 11 year warranty if your installer is an ABC contractor by BOSCH such as us
    Hope this helps
    Have a great day
  13. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    Thank you everyone. I was told that Carrier just went to a 10 year parts and labor warranty, but I am still wondering how the price is so much lower with the Carrier compared to the Bosch. I am certain it is not the unit. I know the Bosch unit does not have an internal pump. The Bosch installer is opting for an external variable speed pump.

    Does anyone know details of the pump within the Carrier unit?

    Also, I am leaning towards going with the Bosch system for several reasons but mostly because the dealer works with a lot more Geo (and seems to be more knowledgeable).
  14. The variable speed flow center from BOSCH is a great product but a huge adder in price. $2400 worth.
    And yes there is a huge difference in equipment and pricing.
    You need to get the model numbers of the Carrier unit just because there are so many grades of equipment with different level of quality parts.
    I know I saw it first hand in the factory
    Good Luck
  15. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    Does anyone have experience with the Carrier unit GTO36VT-R?
  16. The Carrier GT is close to the BOSCH SM unit. So it is a great unit. It also offer closed cell foam insulation in the cabinet as does the BOSCH. Not the standard foil faced fiberglass insulation. So that is a really nice upgrade as well. But it does not include the variable speed flow center which is worth every penny.
    It is a 2 stage copeland scroll compressor with variable speed blower. So it is their premium machine.
    As far as the flow center or pump for the loops.
    Climatemaster is the only manufacturer that is offering internal flow centers. Which are very nice, once we installed one we dont want to go back to external flow centers unless we are forced to. Which in some cases we still do.
    The CARRIER will need an external flow center. This will be the selection of your installer.
    Hope that helps
  17. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    The flow center that was selected is the FCP11CD, which I, unfortunately, cannot find any documentation on.
  18. That is info that I do not have access to as we are not a CARRIER dealer
  19. I will say that the Carrier quote would concern me as it is very low. So when things go wrong and they can and will. He will more than likely hit you pretty hard with additional services required. If it were me BOSCH all the way as you then have a company that does care about their customers.
  20. thelinuxfan

    thelinuxfan New Member

    That was my one of my concerns as well, but I was told Carrier just recently went with a 10 year parts and labor warranty.

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