Ohio Geo Proposal

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by j0sh441, Jul 21, 2016.

  1. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Hello first of all my name is Josh i'm brand new to the forum, as this is my first post. I've recently received a quote for a DIY geothermal system for my home from a terra source geothermal in Batavia ohio. I've been doing alot of research on this company and have only found one bad review on the Internet from a lady. I was wondering if anyone has done business with this company, or are running any of his systems in your homes. After I read the bad review I decided to contact the owner of the business to get references, he sent me 4 people of which ive been in contact with who can't say anything bad about the owner or his company. I've received 5 installed quotes from reputable companies near me and have decided they are all out of my budget. I can get a system from this company and save half of the money. Problem is, I'm looking for feedback on the company. Thank you in advance for any and all comments.
     
  2. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    May I also add that he quoted me a 4 ton CM tranquility 30 digital series. 2500 sq ft with 1800 sq ft unfinished basement. Spray foamed walls r38 in the attic. New low e windows. Did a manual j but I don't have access to it, I do however have the papers from the geolink design studio he used if those would be helpful.
     
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I see it is still a geo desert down that way. I can get you the equipment, who is doing the design and installation?

    Mark
     
  4. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Nick at terrasource in Batavia is supplying the unit with all necessary equipment to complete the install. He designed the setup. As far as the work my father in law digs for the state he will be doing all the digging and that leaves me doing everything else. Interested in a helping hand from someone knowledgeable to get this accomplished. If your interested, let me know. Thank you for the reply.
     
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Keep in mind that the 30% tax credits require a "professional installation" and certain industry minimum standards, including warranties, and are written to not support DIYs.

    There are people who take DIYs by the hand and do a very good job (joe here is one of them) but others might leave you in the dust once you bought the equipment from them. So be aware of people who just want to see you the equipment but want nothing to do with the design or the task to put it in.

    So post load numbers, and what comprises "all the equipment", and we will be happy to help with advise.
     
  6. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Thank you for the reply Doc. Fortunately the system has already been designed, and I'm purchasing it off of the above mentioned so I will not need to worry about others on the forum just wanting to sell equipment. After visiting energy.Gov site it clearly states that diy installations are accepted. I'm not saying you are wrong by any means just stating what I took from the passage on there website. Can you get the numbers you need from the printout from the geolink design studio that was used? I know he did a manual j but did not leave me with the results. Thank you again for the advice.
     
  7. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Oh, and to add to this. I have a family member who installed his own system 9 years ago and still works perfectly to this date. He also helped his brother do a diy system install. Neither of which had any problem gaining the govt. Rebate.
     
  8. Dinnerbellmel

    Dinnerbellmel New Member

    Mrrxtech from this forum is the guy you should ask. I think he is from Ohio and touts DIY installations.
     
  9. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Dinner:

    I am also in Ohio and did travel about. I am not in the equipment sales business. I do know what to do and how to do it.

    Mark
     
  10. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    Where did you get that info? I couldn't find any statements to support that on the IRS.gov site or the Energy Star website.

    https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5695.pdf

    https://energystar.zendesk.com/hc/e...there-a-tax-credit-for-geothermal-heat-pumps-

    https://energystar.zendesk.com/hc/e...rmal-heat-pump-are-covered-by-the-tax-credit-

    https://www.irs.gov/irb/2009-19_IRB/ar08.html
     
  11. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Please see attachment I'm not sure if these numbers will help you at all. I do not have the actual Manual J that was done, the contractor took it with him.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Here is the designed system for you to take a look at. Note the system is actually the CM tranquility digital 30 not the geologix.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/specs/private/Geothermal_Heat_Pumps_Program_Requirements v3.1.pdf

    The tax credit eligibility is linked to the be an energy star partner (manufacturer) but I think they changed the language with 3.1

    I believe it read "Partner shall use" and now since 3.1 it reads "Partner shall strive to use"


    10.2.Partner should strive to use contractors or loop installers who have received training on the design and installation of the ground heat exchanger and who provide warranty protection for the integrity and performance of the ground heat exchanger for at least two years.

    10.2.1.Ground heat exchanger training may be provided by Partner or a well-regarded training program.

    10.2.2.Partner shall focus its ENERGY STAR marketing efforts in regions where contractors and loop installers have received training and provide warranties.


    EDIT: Here is some older language, which was interpreted on some energy star printed material that a "professional installation" was required:

    "Since the performance of the geothermal heat pump is significantly related to the design and
    installation of the ground heat exchanger, Partner will strive to ensure that the customer receives warranty protection for the integrity and performance of the ground heat exchanger for at least two years. Partner will inform all distributors and dealers of ENERGY STAR labeled geothermal heat pumps of the need for warranty protection for the customer. Partner will focus its ENERGY STAR marketing efforts in regions where contractors provide customer warranties."

    But I agree there is a difference between "will inform of the need for warranty protection" and specifically requiring warranty for the loop.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  14. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The system "design" is actually for a Waterfurnace geo system. Was this one proposed by a contractor? Not sure if the 1.25" pipe he used horizontally was a any design at all.

    The proposal for the material is not really a design either, just a material list. They ship the loops profiled with antifreeze, which I find interesting.

    But overall not a bad concept or execution. I would argue that you only need 1 pump (26-99) if you have (6) 500ft loops, which are SDR 9, and I would think that a non pressurized system would serve you better.

    But I did get a kick out of their seizing chart at the bottom.

    1500-1800 sqf = 3 ton
    1801- 2500 sqf = 4 ton
    and so on
    http://www.geothermalheaters.com/products/terrasource-geothermal-products.html

    Again, not saying that kind of system or overall "design" wouldn't serve you well, or their seizing and products are off here.
     
  15. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

  16. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I knew that was the case. It is some times better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
     
  17. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    Well the above was actually the invoice to which I purchased today. The Geolink design, came from another contractor who wanted to install a waterfurnace series 5. I had 3 quotes from multiple contractors for this project. All systems were sized for my home at 4 ton, except for 1 which quoted me a 3 ton Trane unit with a horizontal loop configuration. The only difference was the waterfurnace loop design was for 1 loop out and back, the other 2 quoted 3 trenches 250' long 3 ft wide 7 ft deep also horizontal loop configuration with 1500 ft of 3/4 pipe with a "4 Pipe" design. From what I've read, it seems as most use SDR11 instead of SDR9 which is what I purchased from him, is SDR9 not as good? Any reason as to why he uses SDR pipe? Also As far as the pressurized/non-pressurized pump goes I asked him about it and he said he's never used a non-pressurized pump. Hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  18. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Certainly,

    the equipment must be on the approved list. And yes, it has to be your place of residence. However, people have also interpreted the wording to require to seek trained installers and to seek a minimum of 2 years of warranty for the loop field as a requirement, which in lawyers jamboo might not be. Just wanted you to be aware of it.
     
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    1 loop out and back is bad. To much flow resistance.
    SDR 9 pipe has a thicker pipe wall and therefore does not transfer as much heat as SDR 11.
    The fact that he never used non pressurized flow centers. Non pressurized flow centers have their advantages, they are called the "call back eliminator" due to the fact that they limit precipitation of gases out of the water due to the lack of pressure changes within the loop field. But he also does not have to purge out the loop either.
     
  20. j0sh441

    j0sh441 Member

    The 1 loop out and back is the method that the older gentleman uses. Says he's been using it for 40 years. He installed a unit for one of my kin 20 some years ago with that same type of configuration which is still running like a champ today. Is the thicker walled pipe going to affect my heat transfer to the point where things will malfunction? This pipe has the business name imprinted on it. As well as his manifold cabinet. I'm hoping to start this project next weekend. From what you've read about the system as a whole, do you think it should be "sufficient". I'm trying to get one of the contractors to email me a copy of the manual j. But have had no luck in doing so yet. I also asked the gentleman why he thought this system required 2 pumps. Haven't received an answer on that one yet. Thanks for your info.
     

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