New York Fix or new system?

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Colton Weber, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sorry to hear that....:(
     
  2. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    So aztech just dropped a water heater off for me 2 borrow until I get a new system!! These guys are awesome! Reeling me right in ha!
     
  3. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    "We finished pricing on the 2 ton Water-to-Water dedicated domestic hot water unit. The total cost will end up being an additional $7,838.86 and (based on a household of 3) saves an additional 1,000 kWh per year over the two-tank desuperheater, which ends up being around $140 a year. The savings are a little hurt since your well pump has to turn on every time the domestic water needs to be heated or else it would have been more in the $250 range like we thought.
    I didn’t deduct the option cost of the two-tank desuperheater. The de-superheater option cost qualifies for the 30% federal tax credit so would technically add $2,590 after incentives compared to the $7,883 for the 2 ton water-to-water."
     
  4. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    My water heater is 22 years old and I’m optimistic that it will last until March or so, which is when my system will be installed. Otherwise I may need to take those guys up on their offer to help out if a failure occurs.
     
  5. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Was blown away when he said they would deliver me a loaner tank for free! Customer service is top notch so far!
     
  6. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    I should have pointed out that “those guys” are not your installer. I’m using a local installer here in the western part of the state.
     
    Colton Weber likes this.
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So if they charge you $7,838.86 extra, it should qualify for an extra $3,000 rebate from NYSERDA. In addition you should get a 30% tax credit.
    Now, a dual stage heat pump for space conditioning will run about 3,500 hours in Albany climate annually. Forget cooling for now. The hot water heat pump will likely run 2 x 30 min every day, for a total annual runtime of about 365 hours.
    However, the desuperheater "steals" about 10% capacity from the heat pump (the heat goes into the tank and not into the space), thus it would run only 3,150 annually without the desuperheater to put the same amount of BTUs into your space. Thus the well pump will be reduced by 350 hours. Most of the time the second heat pump will come on when the heat pump for your space is running, so it actually serves both heat pumps simultaneously. It is a bit more complex than that, but overall I would argue that there is no additional runtime for the well pump.

    The other thing to consider is that the desuperheater contribution is often over estimated. 50 gpm per day for 3 people, heated from 50 to 125 F. To heat up 1 gallon by 1 degree takes 8.33 BTUs. So 31,237.50 BTUs per day, 11,401687.5 BTUs per year, or 3,341.64 KWH. at your 14 cents per KWH, that is $467.83 per year with an electric tank. Now add 10% stand by loss, you are at $514. Lets say at a COP of 4, a dedicated heat pump will save you 75%, or $385. So how much does a desuperheater save you? i would argue that 6 month a year it saves you nothing, and the other half of the year it saves you 50%. So 25% of your total.

    I have attached a monitoring dated 12-31-2018, which reflects a 2 person household in Buffalo NY climate, where we monitor the energy usage of the 2nd tank separately.
    http://welserver.com/WEL0603/ is the live system.

    It shows you that the separate 5KW heat element came on 675 hours per year ( a bit under 2 hours/day), using 3375 KWH, in your caseat 14 cents/kwh it would have cost you $472. again, this is in addition to the additional run time of the heat pump.In this case the electric supplement heat for hot water, in addition to the desuperheater run costs, was $364. Additional costs to run the desuperheater was probably $80, Thus about $440 total. A dedicated heat pump could have done this at a COP of 4, for about $110, providing $330 savings. That is at 11 cents/kwh. Yours will be more.

    We have monitoring on about 5 dedicated heatpump for domestic hot water, they run an average of 100 kWh per month, with 3-4 person households. However you spin it, the savings are more than $140/month.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Told you they are a good installer.
     
  9. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    He said the 7800 was after rebates. Also think I will be going with the 7 series so it runs a lot more frequently. Will have to get a variable speed well pump as well. But anyways if I take away the 2500 the desuper heater would have cost me still be 5500 more. I think. He is going to do a write up with both options tomorrow so I will have a better understanding of cost. Also they said we will need a well pump down test to see if it can handle 2 heat pumps.
     
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    2 heatpumps, 5 ton total, should be 7.5 gpm total max water flow requirement.

    So lets say he charges you $7800 versus $3500 for the DSH, that is $4300 difference, minus 30% tax credit ($1290), that is $3010 more....

    Maybe I am missing something.
     
  11. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    I do not know but I think the 7800 is after nyserda and 30%. I will find out tomorrow and post up. Really appreciate all your help! Feel like coming to albany and doing an install?? Haha
     
  12. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  13. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

  14. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    So looks like 5k extra
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Just talked to a guy from bourque mechanical. He's not to keen on the hot water options. Dosent think it's really worth it will take a while to get money back. But he said he did a similar geo unit close by my house using climate master tranquility 30. Said it was like 13k before rebates. So wtf that's like 5500 after rebates....? Hes coming to give me an estimate monday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  16. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    In my situation the price for the dedicated domestic hot water heat pump along with the storage tank came out to very close to quotes I received for high-efficiciency tankless natural gas water heaters. This is after the federal tax credit and NYSERDA rebate to the geothermal installer in the Buffalo area.

    The geo option will probably save me close to $300 s year, i think.

    Each situation is different and it looks like the economics might not be as clear cut for your area.
     
  17. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Aztech Geothermal 10 year parts 5 year labor
    7 Series unit
    $ 26,630
    $ (4,750) NYSERDA rebate
    $ (6,564) 30% Federal Tax Credit
    $ 15,316

    7 series W/ Desuperheater
    $ 26,630 7 Series Unit
    $ 3,700 2 tank desuperheater
    $ 4,750 NYSERDA Rebate
    $ 7,294 30% fed tax rebate
    $ 18,286

    7 series W/ 2 ton W-T-W
    $ 26,630 7 Series Unit
    $ 14,511 2 ton w-t-w unit
    $ (8238) NYSERDA Rebate
    $ (9,870) 30% Federal Tax Credit
    $ 23,115

    5 Series unit (20% less efficient then 7 series)
    $ 24,040 5 Series Geothermal Cost
    $ (4,925) NYSERDA Rebate
    $ 19,115 Net after NYSERDA Rebate
    $ (5,734) 30% Federal Tax Credit
    $ 13,381 Net Geothermal Price

    Bourque Mechanical 10 year parts 10 year labor warranty
    Climate master tranquility 30 (Comparable to 5 series)
    $ 13,000? I believe he said before rebates. Will get real estimate from him monday.
    $ (4,945) NYSERDA Rebate
    $ (2,416) 30% Federal Tax Credit
    $ 5,639
     
  18. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    I like the idea of 100% hot water from the heat pump. But now I have two heat pumps that can potentially break. And $5k more upfront then a desuperheater.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not sure if he understands the impact then, or has done the math. Dedicated hot water is definitely worth it, but you must have the know how to put it in, and the price and payback has to justify the investment.

    I won't comment on the quotes' of others. We have ours, and they are public and mostly standardized, so they are transparent.

    Although I personally would prefer the Waterfurnace for quality, $10K is a huge difference.
     
  20. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Aztech came and did a blower door test. Took measurements. Going to do a heat loss and make sure 3 ton is right for me.

    Choice heating came the guy was very friendly and professional. Took pictures and measurments of everything. Will post up that estimate when I get it.

    Bourque mechanic never showed up. Guess he dosent want my business. Oh well.
     

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