New York Fix or new system?

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Colton Weber, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Hey guys, need some help deciding the best option here. Bought a house in august with a geothermal open loop system. Approx 17 yrs old. In summer the ac was great except there was water on floor around unit. Tech could not find leak. Said I needed to install $800 with of plumbing and test valves for him to properly check the system. Then comes heating season. My electric bill went from around 115 to 300 a month. It's not even cold yet! Aux heat comes on randomly throught the day even when outside temps are 30deg.
    Contacted a local geo company aztech geothermal. The guy gave me a quote and told me the system should not be going into aux. Also said the old waterfurnace units had a life range of around 15yrs. So already on borrowed time at 17?
    Anyways he guesstimate service call would be around 500-600$. If I do service call then decide on new unit they will not charge me for the service just bill it as an initial estimate or something like that.

    House is around 1300sq ft with tons of windows. And the basement is heated as well do not think that's included in the sqft.

    His quote included a 3ton 5 series water furnace. With options to upgrade to a 7. Is the 7 a good upgrade? Says it is 20% more efficient. I also want to add a desuper heater and holding tank.

    So basically with 7 series and desuper heater it would be around 18k after rebates. Is this a good price? Or should I just try and have my old unit fixed? 2019 last year for 30% fed tax rebate. Really making me think about new unit.

    Included pdf quote he sent me for more info.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  2. nc73

    nc73 Member Forum Leader

    18k just to replace with the same old open loop? LOL OMG I'm in the wrong line of work. If you've got the cash go for it. Help the economy :)
     
  3. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    I am moving forward with a 5-ton Series 7, a smaller Series 5 for hot water, a house full of duct work, and the outside loop for not a whole lot more than your quote. This is Western NY.

    I’m no pro, but yours might be a little high.
     
    Colton Weber likes this.
  4. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    I am near albany NY. Not many geo thermal people around. Will have to find some other contractors for quotes.
     
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Aztech is a top notch installer. I suggest to go with the 7 series, it is worth every penny. Albany has higher labor costs and higher overhead than Western NY.
    How do you plan to make your hot water? The desuperheater they have proposed?

    The worst thing you can do is getting 3-4 quotes and go with the cheapest installer....

    The only thing I am confused with is wether you have an open or closed loop system, and if a loop field install is included in your quote.

    Your estimate shows a variable speed flow center, and talks about:

    "A water and non-toxic/non-flammable antifreeze mixture will be circulated from the heat pump to the ground loop by a flow center (source water circulator pumps and fluid reservoir) located in the basement. The flow center will maintain the needed flow rates to provide the proper turbulence for thermal conductivity and the gallons per minute required for effective operation of the heat pump."

    You might want to check back with them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    Colton Weber likes this.
  6. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    It also states "Note: The estimate assumes your existing electrical service, water source, breakers and
    wires are in good working condition and can be reused. It further assumes the water supply
    has sufficient capacity and is in good working order."
    I felt great after talking to Chris at aztech. Seemed extremely knowledgable and professional. Just was not sure if it was a fair price or not.
     
  7. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    7 series with open system is tricky, hard to set up since it runs forever,and the well pump would run forever, and you need a variable speed well pump to make this efficient. I would also ask for a dedicated hot water heat pump solution.
     
  9. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    I believe the quote included the desuperheater. 50gal Holding tank. And an electric 50gal hot water heater.

    And yea that dosent sound great. Gonna use all my water!
     
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You might want to ask them to add a 2nd dedicated heat pump for domestic hot water.

    The confusing part is that they talk about a variable speed flow center for a closed loop system, with antifreeze (which does not exist in open loop systems) and turbulent flow (which is also not relevant for open systems). ......
     
    Colton Weber likes this.
  11. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    I'll ask them about that.
     
  12. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    A second heat pump instead of an electric hot water heater? Or?? Or the desuperheater they put on the quote? I plan on going with that option for the desuperheater.
     
  13. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    His reply "You are correct. I might have left some closed loop language in there from a previous estimate. We would also double check your water quality to make sure there were no problems with keeping it an open loop system. The heat pump will also be ordered with an open loop heat exchanger to help protect it in case there are any changes in water quality over the years."
     
  14. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    NYS right now has rebates for geo systems. Thus instead of getting a desuperheater, which only makes 50-60% of your domestic hot water (the rest is electric resistant heat) you might want to discuss getting a dedicated 2 ton water-water heatpump to get 100% of you domestic hot water via the geo system.

    The additional rebates of $3000 and the $3500 you would save on the desuperheater might pay for the equipment.
     
  15. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Oh ok! Thanks for the tip!!!
     
  16. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You might see significant energy savings that way. I would suspect $250-300/year. How much is that worth? Plus it would give your geo system 10% more capacity to heat your house.
    All things to consider....
     
    Colton Weber likes this.
  17. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    Reply from aztech
    "I’ve looked at these before but even with the incentives I think it adds more than the 2-tank desuperheater cost. It would also cause your well pump to come on every time it needed to make hot water. I’ll run the numbers and get back to you.


    If you’re looking for another option besides the 2-tank desuperheater you could look into the air source water heaters but they tend to make your basement noticeably colder."
     
  18. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Let's say it adds $8K. $3 K come from NYSERDA, $3.5K you save for the desuperheater, and whatever the additional expenses are you get a 30% federal tax credit for. All together a $7-8K value. Now you are saving conservatively $250/year for hot water...for life.

    Yep, the hot water heat pump comes on every time you need hot water, which is likely twice a day for 30 min. 350 hours per year.
    But it also comes on every time your 5 series is running, likely 3500 hours per year. And many hours they (the heat pumps) will likely run together, so no more work for the well pump. I don't see the downside.
     
    Colton Weber likes this.
  19. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    No I agree it sounds awesome to me!
     
  20. Colton Weber

    Colton Weber Member

    And there goes the water heater.... ugh.
     

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