First 18 months with NO SAVINGS AT ALL

I had a WaterFurnace system installed in my home about 18 months ago. I gave it this long so that I could get a good analysis of savings. Turns out there were none. I spent $26K ($18K after tax credit and rebate). I called the installer to discuss the situation and received primarily hostility from him. He did send someone to check the system. The technician found that the pressure in the loop was low so he pumped it up. Problem is I tracked the KW usage for a several days after the adjustment and it appeared to be running at about the same rate as prior to the adjustment. Temperatures were similar. We operate the system at the same temperatures as we did with the old gas furnace/AC combo system. That system was 20 years old. Even the summer AC is not less money than the old system.

What should I do?

 

For starters, tell us more. Look at the sticky at the top of the troubleshooting forum and let us know as much of the info as you can on that checklist so the pros here can tell you whether your system is performing properly or not....and whether your expected savings were reasonable or not.

Of particular interest here for starters might be #s 1 thru 5 and #10 on that checklist.

 

There is often a disparity between expectations and realistic performance, however the only time a properly designed geo might cost more than gas would be if electricity were really expensive and gas super cheap.
There's no way we can gleen anything from the info you have provided, but our first guess would be over use of an auxiliary coil.
Good Luck,
Joe

 

I will provide as many details as possible.

I have my electric backup switched off all the time. I try to never use stage 2 of compressor. I took pictures of the sticker on the machine and am inserting them. If they are not clear enough or if this is not the information you need please tell me.

 

Typically, in a water to air Envision unit, part or all of the electric aux heat is on the same breaker as the blower (fan). If this is the case with your unit, aux heat may still be engaging since it may still be getting power.

How are you avoiding the use of stage 2 on the compressor?

 

Dumb question...

Are you just looking at electrical usage compared with old electrical?

Some electrical numbers would be helpful for the experts here to help you out.

Water temperatures etc....I'm sure they are part of the list JML pointed out.

 

Good thought. Should be looking at electric + gas before and after geothermal. Keep in mind that outdoor conditions can effect running cost. I'd suggest comparing cooling and heating degree days for the period in question.

This doesn't sound right. I agree that the troubleshooting checklist is a good place to start.

 

Again we identified the kind of information we need in the troubleshooters check list.
So far you have answered brand and size......
J

 

First of all I want to thank you folks for taking the time to respond to me. This is a frustrating problem for me.

“Look at the sticky at the top of the troubleshooting forum and let us know as much of the info as you can on that checklist” Could you be more specific on where to find this troubleshooting check list?

With regard to the aux electric, I had the installer put in a toggle switch that I can use to disable the aux electric completely. I always keep it turned off. The thermostat screen turns red if the aux electric comes on and it never does (except when we were testing it0. I live outside of Philadelphia and although it does get pretty cold sometimes the regular heat pump has always been able to handle it.

With regard to avoiding the use of stage 2, we keep the temperature pretty constant only changing it one degree at a time generally so stage 2 is not required.

With regard to before and after bill comparisons I compared total bills including gas usage. I can upload an excel sheet if it would be of any help. I used the two years prior to conversion and averaged them to use as the base comparison. I have all the average temperatures by month also.

I also have a manual if that would help.

Another point is that the summer bills also did not show savings. That means I’m comparing a 20 year old central air unit to the current waterfurnace unit. How is that possible?

One other possibility: The old AC system was 3 tons. He put in a 4 ton system. Could that have anything to do with the problem?

Thanks again and if you can help me find the troubleshooting checklist I’ll get any information I can.

 

Troubleshooting checklist

Naturally, as soon as I posted the last response I found the troubleshooting checklist. I will work on getting that info. Thanks.

 

"With regard to avoiding the use of stage 2, we keep the temperature pretty constant only changing it one degree at a time generally so stage 2 is not required"

If stage 2 is never required, your system is grossly oversized. How do you know that it is not running?
j

 

The thermostat screen shows stage 1 or stage 2. Stage 2 only comes on when you ask it to increase the temperature by at least 2 degrees. Normally if we are chilly we increase one degree and wait to see if that is sufficient.

 

Ok, if your system is designed with a capacity large enough to avoid stage 2 use, then it is definately oversized and your installer's experience is in question.

 

This could be a problem with the installer set up on the thermostat. We fix sooooo many of these. Installers often seem to skip this step. You should be able to go on line and find these instructions if you don't have them.

 

Oversized? Thermostat?

In fact I was the installers very first geothermal customer. He seemed like a solid character so I trusted him. Now he doesn't even want to talk to me.

If the system is over sized would that be sufficient to cause the system to not save me any money?

If it should be 3 tons instead of the 4 tons how big of a deal would it be to switch out?

Do you think I could get WaterFurnace to come in and diagnosis the problem?

What exactly could be wrong with the thermostat?

Is the Gain/Loss calculation something I could do if I had instructions?

 

1) if indeed heis of solid character all may not be lost.
2) If the system is designed poorly that may cause it not to save you money.
3) not worth changing.
4) they do not own the design and are not responsible for it. they might try to help.
5) settings on a thermostat can make a system more expensive to run.
6) there are inexpensive and free load calculators on the net.
j

 

Airflow

If he put a 4 ton heat pump on 3 ton ductwork this may be part of your problem. Do you know and can your contractor verify that he performed the required airflow calcs? Your heat loss/gain calculation should indicated how much air is required at each register to satisfy the room's requirement.

 

can you post some numbers?

Without some real numbers, we are all just guessing here.

How much gas did you typically burn over a season? How much electricity did you use then? How much are you consuming now?
If you can post your spreadsheet, that would sure help us help you.

 

Spreadsheet

Spreadsheet attached

 

Another possibility

The original installation was in August 2009. The installer came back in a couple months and pumped additional fluid in loop to bring pressure back to normal. Apparently there is some expansion of pipes initially. When he sent his technician out last month the pressure was down to about half normal. He pumped it up again. From what I saw the system was still using about the same electricity as before the second pumping but could there be a leak? Could low pressure in loop cost that much more in electricity? Where can I buy one of those pressure gauges? I'd like to see if the pressure went down again. What brand guage? Thanks.