Pennsylvania extracting working parameters for waterfurnace 500r11

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Jonas Baltrusaitis, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    Dear all, I have a 3 ton unit installed 2 weeks ago with vertical 450 feet and split unit waterfurnace 500r11. That one is really a pain since it has no information displayed anywhere (and is controlled by the Honeywell Pro T7 thermostat). While I do not understand exactly how it works, I would like at least to be able to monitor how it behaves, e.g. refrig temps in out, pressures, volumes, when which stage kicks in etc. I would like to do that since I have air ducts from the attic so upstairs is much hotter than downstairs. I feel that continuous low circulation would help with this problem. But that is the next step.

    For now, how do I monitor the system work? There is a port in the unit, contractor said it is for contractor and I need to buy something special to connect. So my question is: how do I conveniently have parameters displayed? I know Waterfurnace has software but from their website I did not understand how to get it and how to run it. It should not be that complex but it is

     
  2. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    The Water Furnace monitoring is called Symphony and should be bought through your dealer/contractor. Www.welserver.com is one example of a DIY monitoring possibility.
     
  3. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    Thank you. I must say I am puzzled about Symphony and all the dealer/contractor thing. My contractor showed me the port to connect to diagnose the system and said it's for contractors and best not touched. My Honeywell Pro T7 does not provide much info or records what happens. I would be interested to install Symphony but even their website directs me to some mysterious dealers. Is there a way to call them, get the software and install it myself? Anybody done it?
     
  4. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    Try to reach Docjenser here. He should be able to guide you.
     
  5. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

  6. gsmith22

    gsmith22 Member

    Post #2 tells you what you need - either Symphony through Waterfurnace or the DIY route via the welserver. Symphony has to be installed by a WF dealer because they register it with WF to transmit data back and forth. Confirm the split units are able to use Symphony. I have 7 series packaged units that have Symphony in each. I have never heard a bad thing about welserver but I don't own that monitoring kit myself so can't comment.

    Edit: look at WF's specification catalog for the split unit to see what control board you have. The symphony with aurora web link needs the AXB board and depending on what you want monitored, some or all of the monitoring packages installed. The units come pre-configured from the factory for this but I imagine can be added post install. But that would definitely be a contractor only installation option.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  7. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    Thank you. I have been running this unit for a couple of months now and I must say I am running it blind. Yesterday it was trying to maintain 66 degrees with 40 degrees outside and still was occasionally running auxiliary heat. Tonight it's 26 outside I am trying to keep 63 inside, it pretty much all the time is on and most of that auxiliary heat is on. I am worried that I do not know if it runs to the optimum without seeing any values. Should it really need auxiliary heat at such moderate temperatures outside? I just have no point of reference at this point since all I use to monitor is Honeywell Pro T7
     
  8. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    Unfortunately you’re far from efficient if you’re engaging aux at 40F, and not being able to maintain your set temp is a sign that something isn’t right. Assuming your loop was designed and installed properly, I would next look at heat of extraction to see if your heat pump is performing as it should. This is where you’d need to have a few measurement tools on hand and go DIY, or have your installer back to address your concerns. This is a helpful resource if you want to read up on this:
    https://geoconnectionsinc.com/resources/forced_air_efficiency_measurement.html

    Lastly, if everything checks out, have a look at your ductwork. I have a split with air handler in the attic and flex ducts. I had to repair at least a few runs after install to get the conditioned air delivery I was supposed to.
     
  9. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    thank you. One question: if I install Symphony will that provide the measured values for me? Also, could you elaborate re ducts since the installer put in a completely new ducts for me, I was wondering what might go wrong
     
  10. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Did they seal the ducts and insulate them?

    Can't find a T7 tstat, could it be a T6 or a T10. TH6320U2008 is one that has 3 heat stages and 2 cool. See install manual page 8 has back up heat options.
     

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  11. SShaw

    SShaw Member

    With Symphony and the optional Weblink, you can see the following on the phone and web: entering water temperature (no leaving temp), entering and leaving air temperatures, compressor stage, fan speed, humidity, set point, inside temp, outside temp, and energy use. Energy use shows current wattage for: compressor, fan, pump, AUX heat, and total wattage. You can also see a summary of energy usage for the day, week, month, and year. Energy use shows wattage for fan, high and low stage heat or cool, and AUX heat.

    The Symphony touchscreen thermostat will display the compressor stage, fan speed, and energy use. The daily energy use display on the thermostat shows daily runtime.

    Depending on the monitoring package installed, the system can collect many more parameters (such as water flow, leaving water temperature, refrigerant pressures and temps, etc.) Everything needed to compute heating capacity and COP is included if you have all the sensors installed, but these values are intended for installer diagnostics and are not exposed in the user interface. There is no "convenient display" of these additional parameters.

    Can you post the full model number of you unit (NDZXXX...)? It will indicate whether you have any of the required monitoring options (AXB board, etc.) installed in your unit.

    upload_2019-12-23_9-19-26.png
     
  12. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    OK, newest development happened when the fan circulated all night with aux heater on and I went to the basement and the unit was off! Installer came in, turns out the unit stopped due to the freezing in the loop which was caused by the low pressure which was caused by a the leak in geolink pump (there should be two of them but one is not needed so it's sealed with the gasket and that gasket was not sitting properly). Where the liquid went it's still unclear. He fixed everything.

    However, our discussion on Symphony led to the conclusion that split units either does not have capability to run Symphony or need lots of work to install Symphony. He's a distributor but advised strongly against and suggested I install manual thermometers to monitor loops.

    What I want is some indication that things working. And be able to somehow adjust that damn electric auxilary since today I wanted to heat 2 degrees higher, took it off the schedule on manual and auxilary immediately kicked in with 40 degrees outside. I would like more monitoring/control. Thank you all for helping.

    20191224_192024.jpg
     
  13. gsmith22

    gsmith22 Member

    you have the aurora base control board (second to last letter is "A"). You would need to have the advanced control board at a minimum and then depending on what you want to monitor, various sensor packages. The second to last letter would be a "B" if you had the advanced control board and then depending on the monitoring packages could be a "C" or "D" - see post 11 and letter/number position 15.

    I don't doubt that you could do it but it sounds like a bunch of work for any tech as they would effectively be adding the advanced control board to the existing system and then installing all the sensors. Doesn't sound like the tech that came over would be "the guy". Have no idea what it would cost to do the work but it certainly doesn't seem impossible. Welserver might be your answer - did you check out their website? they have lots of online system where you can see what people are monitoring.

    I'm not sure I would be worried about the elec heat coming on when switching up 2 degrees as long as it turned off pretty quickly after set point gets closer/reached. I would be more worried about elect heat coming on regularly when no temp change at thermostat (ie loop or system too small to heat house).
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  14. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    OK, thank you all. Looks like there is no reason to implement this monitoring on the furnace. My controller is T5 from Honeywell. I could not find it how, but is there a way to record and extract hardware status from it? I think if I could have a history of when which stages were one that would be sufficient (correlated with the temperature outside). I could not find an option to do that although it is WiFi
     
  15. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    I did a quick read through of the T5 thermostat manual. It looks like there’s an “equipment status” section in the Lyric app that’ll show you what stage your heat pump is running. Check page 25 of this:

    https://customer.resideo.com/resources/techlit/TechLitDocuments/33-00000s/33-00231EFS.pdf

    If you want historical data, you’re back to what was originally suggested. For example, I find value in reviewing a chart showing when my heat pump switches stages over a 24 hour period.
     
  16. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    Thank you, Stickman. There is an option to momentarily display that on instrument display. I could not find any option on Lyric to display or further to extract or record history of the equipment status
     
  17. Jonas Baltrusaitis

    Jonas Baltrusaitis New Member

    Funny story. Turns out while I was travelling my donwstairs unit tripped on low temperature reading. Turns out that external loop lost the pressure somehow, contractor came in and found a crooked gasket on Grundfos circulator. Refilled everything. I also changed to ecobee controller where I can control every stage much more comfortably than T5.

    Now I have another question: can somebody recommend a good thermometer to stick into the upstairs unit that would transmit somehow via wifi? I will admit I do not understand the temperature of the air it put out into the rooms. To the touch, sometimes it's cold sometimes it's warm. Remind you, auxiliary heat is now off, I set it so it only can work if temperature outside drops below 10 degrees. So it bothers me that while keeping indoor temperature similar 62-64 the air out of the upstairs unit to the touch is so different. Can 2nd stage compressor have different temperature parameters? Or that depends on the external loop which I know nothing about? Regardless, if I could have there a thermometer without the need of climbing every time to check it, it would help me diagnose things
     

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