Ontario Electrical Usage for Waterfurnace Premier Seems Way Too High

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Andrew Kulin, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We also saw that the auxiliary was not set to run simultaneously with the compressor which should also happen.
  2. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  3. Andrew Kulin

    Andrew Kulin Member

    Ran furnace test on the weekend (kids wanted to kill me). The new thermostat was set up so that geo did not run with Aux. Found that out on Friday night after about an hour, and changing setting while furnace was running had no immediate effect so I ran the test again on Saturday morning, after also setting thermostat to bump up to next heat setting after only 5 minutes to speed things up.

    Here are the results.

  4. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    You were getting a lot more heating with the Aux Heat and 2nd Stage running together. I see you have two banks of heaters for Aux Heat, which explains the amperage step increases last week.

    The Fan speeds may be set up wrong since you have approximately 1 amp running the Fan in the Geothermal 1st Stage then in the 2nd Stage the amps increase to 4 amps.

    I just remembered, a 2 Stage Geothermal uses additional current to energize the coil that picks up a metal ring inside your Compressor to cover the orifice that eliminates the compressor bypass route, increasing you Compressor to its maximum rated Tonnage.
    This could be the reason the current incresaes to 4 amps in the Fan Current Column.
    You have a 3 speed fan per the data table so I would expect the fan to be in Medium or High in the 1St Stage. The Fan may be in Slow speed while in Stage 1 which would affect efficiency of getting the heat out of the Geothermal Unit. Geothermal Units need a greater air flow to move the lower temperature air into the house at a higher volume flow rate during heating.

    Check the Fan Speed in Stage 1 and if it is in Slow Speed, raise it to Medium or High for increased performance in Stage 1.

    You'll have to look for the Winter Time poor performance when the Closed loop water cools down next winter. The Unit appears to be running fine now.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The blower will use 1 Amp when running at 750 CFM (low) and 4 Amps when running at 1400 com (medium). Setting the blower to high speed will use 600-700 watts more and decrease the system performance while also decreasing comfort. There is a reason why geo units with multi stage compressors have variable speed blowers, and are set up that way. While running more airflow over the coil will decrease leaving air temp and increase compressor efficiency, but only marginally, and the gain you get is much less than the extra energy the blower uses. You continue to give really bad advise to people here.

    There is no poor performance of geo heat pumps in the winter due to low entering water temps. Their performance is rated and specified at 32 F EWT!:eek:
  6. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    That verifies that Andrew's fan is running in Slow Speed in the 1st Stage.

    A Carrier 3 Ton, 2 Stage Compressor with Variable Speed Fan (4 selectable speeds) (1250 CFM High Speed) is set up for 1000 cfm in the first Stage and 1250 in 2nd Stage.
    Based on Carriers design, I would set Andrew's fan to run in Medium speed in the 1st Stage and High speed for 2nd Stage operation.

    Doc, since you don't like the word performance used in this manner, how about if I say the Geothermal will heat your home during the coldest winter with an open loop using well water or bottom of the lake water, and won't heat your neighbors home the same winter, using a closed loop when the loop water is in the 20 degree range. That's a fact regardless of terms used to describe why this is true.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
    Mark Custis likes this.
  7. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have a pond that gives me 41* all winter.
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I know, the manufacturers usually set fans higher, .... and I usually turn them down. What makes you think that the unit will run more efficient (including blower power) at a higher blower stage?

    Loops: You still don't seem to understand how this works!

    1) It is not certain the geo will heat you home during the coldest winter, it depends on the capacity of the unit and the heat load of the house, and not wether it is an open or closed system.

    2) It will not do this if it is an open system from the bottom of the lake in heat dominated climate. The heat exchanger in the heat pump will freeze due to the lack of antifreeze in open systems. Well water will work fine, at least as long as LWT is above 37-38 F.

    3) I certainly will and can heat your neighbors house with a closed loop if the system has enough been design with the appropiate capacity. The vast majorities in the US are closed loop systems, they cannot (and are not) freezing, even at (unlike) EWTs (loop temps) in the 20 degree range. A 4 ton heat pump putting out 30,000 BTUs per hour at 20F EWT is doing fine heating your house with a 35,000 BTU/H heat load if that is meant to be the parameter s for its design.

    4) However, why would someone design a closed loop for EWT in the 20 degree range? Closed loops are usually not dropping that low, unless they are not design correctly.

    Again, fact is that a geo heat pump system can easily heat your home (even without supplement heat if desired) an a close loop. You again make statements here which could not be further away from the truth.

    Here is one example of a 3 ton heating on a close loop a house without a single supplement heat during the year. Let me know how many more examples you need, I'll be happy to provide them.
    In the meantime you could display some data on the systems you are basing your statements on. I would be curious to look at them.
  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Unless you have hot springs in your pond, that is physically impossible if the pond freezes, which it does in OHIO. Unless you moved to Florida.
    We had this discussion before, as I recall you did not really understand pond stratification.
  10. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    I was wondering how warm a pond would stay during the winter. Thanks for the information. I realize the depth of the pond and volume of the water would affect how cold it gets in the winter.

    Andrew has a huge lake with granite bottom which would be great for an open loop system, but he can't get below the frost line to bury his pipe & prevent the lake water from freezing in the lines without antifreeze.
  11. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    I've used 15 or more contractors over the years and have never fired one, unlike those who run a business or have no patience with those who are doing the work.
    I've never had a problem until time to pay them when they get greedy and try to take more than we agreed upon. Verbal contracts are legal in Ohio, but contractors will find a reason why they changed their mind and want more than the agreed rate or total amount. The Attorney Generals Office can be used to correct that behavior in a hurry.

    I'm sure everyone has been taken by someone "In The Business" regardless of the type of business. There is always that 10% you can never trust to harvest your Timber, repair your vehicle, work on your house etc.
    Some things never change, but I'm not afraid to say that I was stolen from so others can learn how to prevent that unfortunate event that leads to lack of trust in your fellow humans.

    As for Oil & Gas theft, Do an internet search for "Hope Christian Fellowship vs Chesapeake Energy" that's my Lawsuit. My name is on all of the documents used to go after Chesapeake Energy in Ohio. Companies like people can be Unethical and sign a contract then change their minds in order to take more than their share, or in the case of Chesapeake Energy in Ohio, Take It All with no royalty payment.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
  12. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What does a New Yorker know?
  13. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    I don't get the New Yorker statement.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  14. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Docjenser is in Buffalo NY....

    I am not a pro, I do know what is comfortable.

    I have lived in a house with oil fired hot air and now live in Geo warm air house. I much prefer the slow fan speed 1st stage, I have to walk right up to the main return vent to hear if heats running. This heats the house 85-90% of the time, quiet and comfortable, but that is less then 2 tons of compressor running and 800 CFM of air. A 6 ton in first stage is probably around 4 tons so I sure it has a minimum CFM for the blower that is higher then mine.

    Back to the beginning... Single tank desuperheater. Dehumidifier in unconditioned crawl space. Large tstat set backs lots of AUX heating element use.

    Either plumb in a second non- powered water heater or get a timer on the water heater that will only energize the tank before shower time.

    Air is dryer in the winter, should be no reason to run a dehumidifier, also they can ice up.

    With the Ecobee tstat, could the temp be raised slowly over 24-36 hours via internet? Or try not dropping so much when not there.
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The Physics!
  16. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    A body of water with an ice cover by definition is 39F on the bottom and 32F below the ice on the surface, assuming a certain depth of a few feet, due to the fact that water has its highest gravity at 39F, not at phase change (freezing temperature), which makes it unique as an element.

    This is the reason why you cannot use a pond as an open source since the 39F water is too cold for open systems, since the walls of the heat exchanger (with much colder refrigerant on the other side of the heat exchanger) are below freezing and will allow for ice formation which will start to obstruct your lumen or your heat exchanger, further reducing flow, and soon or later freeze.

    In open systems we start to see this happen with 37-38F leaving water temp, and 52 F EWT, if we reduce the flow. If your EWT is down to 39F you have no room to work with to prevent the LWT to go below 37-38F, which is why open systems do not work in ponds which are ice covered in the winter.
  17. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Doc you are not the only person living in New York.

    Your physics be damned. Besides the loop fields in the pond there is 150' of 1 1/4" tails from the pond to the building. I have been using the same cooper thermometer for years, if it reads 41* then it is 41*.
  18. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Horizontal loops usually run much lower than pond loops so one would not expect to add much.
    It is a mystery to me how you can heat up water in a pipe from 35-37 F (not sure what your flow is) to 41F when surrounded by water not warmer than 39F...
    But I stay corrected, didn't you tell us about a pond loop which even John Manning PE, who many of us respect for his great expertise for geo systems, says it would not work well. The one with 1/2" pex pipe and a ridiculous amount of pressure drop which you said works great.
    Maybe you have to use so much electricity for pumping that the pumps heat up the loop to 41F? That could be the explanation!:cool:
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  19. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The pumps are wilo, The loops are in 14 feet of silt and water. They are not up on bridges. Maybe I get a bit of heat from being buried in the silt. I will open the system and allow you to send temperature test probes any place you want to send them. I have not rechecked the water temps in 6 years, it might be fun to do.

    My issue with John is he thought the size difference between CTS and IPS was greater than he thought.

    You rave about water to water and radiant delivery, so I have concerns that you can not see pond loops as radiant floors.

    I am disabled and retired so I am here all the time why are you here all the time?
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If they are in silt, they are not exposed to stratification, and perform much worse. The worst which can happen to a pond loop if it gets buried in silt.

    Ponds are not radiant floors, since stratifying water around them behaves physically different that solid material surrounding pipes in floors. Colder water than 39F raises up because it is lighter. Heat in a solid medium does not follow gravity, it flows into all direction.
    No need to be concerned, I think I got this covered.

    I am sorry that you are disabled with your vascular problems, especially in your feet. Make the best out of it!

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