Domestic Hot Water Using Indirect Tank

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by tdoe, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. tdoe

    tdoe New Member

    My father in-law keeps saying that the haet pumps are noisy

    I will be getting a 6.6 ton hydronic unit with de-super heater from ECONAR. What do you have to say about the noise concirn?
  2. meyricl

    meyricl New Member

    With some kind of pad installed under the unit and the pumps mounted on the unit the sound will not be bad. A lot of the sound issues came when people mounted the pumps on the wall, the whole house amplifies the sound
  3. Eric D

    Eric D Member

    I have two things to say. First off, what do you plan on heating with this unit? The reason for my question, 6.6 ton is a very large unit. I have worked on 5000+ sq ft homes that are heated here in Michigan weather with a 5 ton. Ok, maybe I have three things to say...In order to have the desuperheater work you need long run times of the heat pump. If you have too large of a unit that short cycles, the desuperheater will not work well.

    Noise level on most newer units are very well controlled with the inclosure they come in. As already mentioned by meyricl, where you put the unit matters. In a basement, on concrete floor, with rubber type padding under it, isolated water line to and from it, you will have to be right next to it to hear it run. In my opinion noise is a non-issue.


    Eric D
  4. tdoe

    tdoe New Member


    (A previous post)
    [​IMG] Looking for suggestions and pictures
    I am currently building a house for my self in MN. I'm doing 90% of the work. I am hopeing to talk to any one willing to offer suggestions of things to keep in mind, regarding geo heat pumps. (wish I would have placed a valve here, Should have placed Vibration isolators there, ect.

    Does any one have pictures of their utility room? I am haveing a hard time finding any on the net. I would like to see how some set-ups look and maybe get an idea how to delegate space in my utility room.

    My set up will be a 6.6 TON hydronic unit for heating and cooling. I will have a hydronic air coil supplying forced air heating and cooling. Also, radient infloor heat in the basement and garage. My HP also has a de-superheater supplying 60%+- of the domestic hot water. The Hydronic tank will be 80 gallons. The domestic hot water tank will be 80-100 gallons, DHW will be operated on "off peak" (hot water storage).

    The unit is a 6.6 ton with a 7ton pit. The house is 3800 sq foot. There has been heat loss calcs done. There should not be any short cycling.

    Any other suggestions?
  5. Eric D

    Eric D Member


    I think you would be far better off having two units. Have a water to air for heating in non radiant areas, desuperheater and for cooling. Then have a water to water for your in floor heating needs. I have worked on this type of arrangements in homes with very good results. If you look at the COP for water to air and compare to a water to water unit, you will find that water to water will fall around 3.2 to 3.5 at best. The water to air units can get very close to 5. You would end up with a more efficient system. I'm not sure if you understand the desuperheater function, but they only supply heat while the heat pump is running. You have to be cooling or heating your home for the desuperheater to heat, as it is a side affect of the main cooling or heating function. By having the two units you increase the run time of the water to air unit, and it would be your primary cooling for summer. It also keeps the size down to allow for better dehumidification and better air quality through filtration an longer run times. Keeping air movement in the home is a good thing.

    Noise seems to be a real concern of yours based on your first post. With the water to air, and noise isolated ducts, you will have a hard time telling when the unit is running. They are very quiet compared to more conventional heating systems. I wonder if your father-in-law is thinking of the air to air heat pumps? They are very noisy. Mostly due to the fans needed.


    Eric D
  6. meyricl

    meyricl New Member

    I would think twice about doing the system myself, you may think that you are saving money upfront but it will be cheaper in the long run to have a qualified professional do the work correctly the first time
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    water to water COP's

    When properly controlled with an outdoor reset controller very high COP's can be achieved with water to water units, I just did an efficiency test on our 3 ton R22 water to water at our shop and it came out at 4.99!
  8. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    There are a lot of unhappy people out there who tried a DIY heat pump.
  9. tdoe

    tdoe New Member

    I do have a contractor

    I do have a contractor. He is very well reccomended. I left out a bunch of information, due to it not being pertenant to my origanal question. I am doing 90% of the work on the house, Including duct work, But the Geo unit will be installed for me. I appreatiate all of the responses. My system should be operational in 3-5 months. I will definetly let you know the results as soon as I can.

    Thank You All,
  10. Eric D

    Eric D Member


    Thanks for the update on your system. Please keep us posted on how things are working out. Picture are always good too.


    Eric D
  11. mseifert

    mseifert Member

    I like to figure out if I can create an indirect water heating system to provide most of my domestic hot water (instead of using the desuperheater option of the geo heat pump.

    The problem is that there must be enough heat exchange within the indirect tank that the water leaving the tank is 10*F cooler than when it entered.

    All the indirect tanks I can find are rated for 180-200F boiler temps. My installer and his tank dealers say these tanks are not designed for heat exchange at 120F and the water won't be able to get rid of enough heat to exit at a 10F delta.

    Does anyone know of a 50 gallon indirect tank which is designed for low boiler temps?
  12. GeoXNE

    GeoXNE Guest

    What you are looking for is a heat exchanger in the tank with a greater surface area or perhaps a reverse indirect tank. Some are very pricey. Look for tanks advertised as high output or commercial or solar and compare sq ft area of heat exchanger.

    This one is referred to by Climatemaster in their w-w applications manual.
    But you might not have to go this far or extravagant.

    Tank manufacturer preferences tend to be regional due to high shipping costs. Try local sources first.
  13. Howard Ek

    Howard Ek Member

  14. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    look at Phoenix if gas fired.
  15. GeoXNE

    GeoXNE Guest

    I will have to say I had my hands on one today and I know what you can get me for Christmas. If anything thing can get you domestic hot water with no aux this is it. Reverse indirect, big exchanger surface, large mass, big pipe connections and an aquastat w/ adjustable differential.

    Has anyone noticed a lot of good hydronic stuff is coming from Canada - Tekmar, HBX Controls, and TurboMax etc.
  16. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Take a look at some of the European stuff.
  17. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Bring money
  18. mseifert

    mseifert Member

    Speaking of money, the Turbomax looks to wholesale at about $1,4**. After installation & 30% rebate this same number is probably my true cost.

    I'm figuring existing cost of $400/year for hot water. The question is how much will I save. At $200/year I can almost justify it.

    The specs on the unit look incredible. Very tempting.
  19. GeoXNE

    GeoXNE Guest

    How much would you be spending on the desuperheater option w/ tank and install?
  20. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I like the design of the Turbomax for this app. It appears to have much greater heat transfer surface than the Ultrastore, and that will be key in a low temperature application. You wouldn't get anywhere near the recovery rates as with 180 boiler water, but it could suffice for a single home.

    I've had a bad experience with a SuperstorUltra - pricey and it seems to have scaled up - boiler water passes through coil with very little delta T even when tank is full of 55 degree cold water, and recovery is very long. I don't know of a way to clean it and installation was pricey.

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