Virginia Does anyone want to take odds on whether or not i can get a letter.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by tommytx, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    I know sounds like a non geo question.. but its right down the geo ally... I have recently had a brand spanking new Bosch water to air installed down stairs and it works fine.. on for 10-15 min per hour and off for 45 min and cool and humidity free like a big dog..
    However i have a Trane 2 ton installed upstairs.. and it runs 24x7 to keep up and when the temp outside reaches 80 degrees it can no longer keep up.. so not only runx 24x7 but no longer can maintain the temp at or near 75 degrees.. They have so far tried everything under the sun and they are about ready to give up.. with that is the best we can do.. WRONG! if it comes to that i will say FINE.. i will get off your back if you bring me a letter from Bosch or Trane that states its perfectly NORMAL to have the unit run 24x7 and fail to hold the temp past 80+ outside... LOL.
    So what are the odds that a mfg would write such a letter.. hopefully they will say pack it and upside to 3 tons..
    My conditioned space is approx 800 square feet so 2 tons should do it since i am well insulated.. but just makes no sense.. I am hoping to get them to remove the Trane and replace it with a Bosch.. i really do like bosch better than trane... So folks keep your fingers crossed and i will let you know what happens... please give me some comments.. am i in left field or do i have a right to demand they get the temp under control and stop the 24x7 (hely terror on electric bill) or step the size of the unit up a notch at their expense..
    What do you think?
     
  2. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Running 24/7 is fine but if it doesn't keep up, you got a system that was too small for the job. Simple as that. Your loop could also be undersized or there's something else going on. Would need more data.
     
  3. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    its the double electric bill that worries me.. in 30 years it would be like buying 3 more geo systems... the main reason for going GEO is to be more efficient and save money on the electric... its their main advertising feature... so is also why I am sure that no MFG would put in writing that if it runs 24x7 and doubles you bill that is normal.. Thanks for that input as every little bit helps..
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  4. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Well it would if you were using dino fuel before. What was your total bill when you didn't have geo?
     
  5. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    Never didn't have Geo in this house.. so have only been exposed to the wonderful low electric bills for 40 years until now.. and that went away with the 24x7 but it will be back soon.... i don't roll over easily..
     
  6. nc73

    nc73 Member

    So what were you using to heat? A regular heat pump or petroleum products?
     
  7. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    My GEO is a heatpump... not just ac.. and the heat did ok during the last winter.. but they have already replaced the downstairs unit with a new Boss so not sure how it will preform this winter.. guess i need to turn it on momentarily just to see if heat works.. I am sure the techs did not check that based on the rest of what i have seen.... they just assume that if it blows some cool air it will blow hot air too.. LOL
     
  8. nc73

    nc73 Member

    I meant what did you use before geo? A regular heat pump? Oil? Propane?
     
  9. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    Before what.. heck i been a GEO man for 40 years.. got 40 years out of the Original Florida Heat Pumps so simply tried to update to the state of the art today dual stage Trane heatpumps water to air... boy was that a mistake.. so far have fired two of the three 3rd party companies that tried to get the two new ones running right and failed and now looks like i need to fire my original company who installed them and knew so little they had to go out and hire a thrid party company to take over.. and i had to fire that gang right away and the originall installer company hired another third party company to take over and they were dumber than the first company... but so far i did get a brand new Bosch geo to replace the downstairs Trane geo so that is better its doing fine now.. but i do not plan to go thru the summer with a 24x7 run of my water pump and a compressor and an air handler motor.. way too much electric bill for my blood... I know the upstairs unit will need to run more than the down.. since its under a hot roof but will not accept a 24x7 unless some mfg will state in writing that is normal even for a correctly sized unit... They would go out of business if the put in writing that they can raise your electric bill right thru the roof...
     
  10. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Gotcha. So obviously something is not right. Good luck!
     
  11. Stickman

    Stickman Member

    Isn't it expected that a correctly sized unit will run 24/7 at design conditions?
     
  12. nc73

    nc73 Member

    He's saying it's not keeping up and electric bill doubled. Someone f'ed up.
     
  13. mtrentw

    mtrentw Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    2 ton should handle 800 sf unless there are huge deviations in Manual J calculation. If you can check for water delta T and flow rate that will give you an idea if the 2 ton is actually removing 2 tons. If it is then I'd be more likely to suspect major air leak or insulation gaps/failure somewhere.
     
  14. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    In addition to the massive overheat heat box that is normal i do have a huge wall that is exposed to a very hot attic.. that is not normal to have a hot attic in overhead and also on one wall.... but we know that would have been included in the Manual J and would have indicated a little more than normal btu would be required but guess what this company never hear of a Manual J or a manual D and they put in all new ducts.... and I think that is what the big deal is all about.. I am forcing the Trane rep to get in volved and pretty sure he will fire the whole gang and give me someone who knows how to make a Trane walk and talk and also someone who has heard of that new fangled unit they came out with 50 years ago called water to air... seems the air to air boys just do not undestand water flow stuff as I have had 3 different contractors on the site working it and not one has any idea how to measure the water flow... they all use temp drop at pt valve... apparently they have not yet graduated to the Trane and Bosch water flow check call PRESSURE drop at the pt valves... they think TEMP Rise at the Pt will tell all.. all i need is a good geo guy and we will be on a roll.. heck i will take a not so good geo guy as long as he knows the basics.. so far not one 3rd party knows anywhere near as much as i know.. and i am certainly not an expert. But i am doing my best to train them... but they still won't believe me that the water flow is set by monitoring the pt pressure drop. They are too concerned with trying to convince me the well line return is restricted and the 30 psi backpress in the return line is holding the water flow too low... JEESH... you would have to be an idiot not to drop a 5/8 inch water host to my back yard and dump the return water on the ground... for a few minutes to see that backpressure is not the problem... Is it that bad out there or did i draw 3 unrelated contractors that are dumb as shit..
    And should i add they all have 5 star reviews.. does that tell you what reviews are worth.. well what the heck they are done by homeowners who have no idea if they got a good job or not..
    And all the homeowner knows that they wore those dainty shoes to protect their carpet and they did not scratch my marble floors.. and there was no water leaking all over when they left and they seem cool enough.... But they did seriously scratch my marble floors, seriously violated the electrical code and put my house in jeopardy of burning down.. and left a leaking condensate line under the house that would not be found untill next year when the termite man comes.. and left dripping water on my boards under house caused by raising the unit 12 inches above the floor with a metal plenum since the new unit did not match the hole in the floor that the old one used... but all those i have not had time to address yet.. as i am too busy trying to get me ac to work with a person in the home with a stroke since Jan and needs the cool .. this story will be going on for a long time... so much to fix..
    Oh not to worry my condensate line won't leak till the termite man.. I know enough to crawl under the house and inspect their work.. But a 5 star homeowner could not or would not do that. The poor sucker has to sit around and wait for the termite man to point it out... the leak that has been there for 7 months..
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  15. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    I understand that if my system is running at its design limits it will run 24x7 to keep up but I was not aware that we design them to run 24x7.. I thought we design them to handle the load if possible .. meaning kick in do its job and rest.. my lord the electric company would be rich (more rich) if 350 million heat pumps ran 24x7 and i would like to think that the limit on a good trane might be when the temp outside runs to 95 then it might go 24x7 that would make sense.. but mine runs 24x7 with outside temp of 75 and when the temp climbs above 80 it cannot keep up the temp begins to rise steadily inside. What the hell would we do in Las Vegas at 107 if 75 makes us run 24x7 that means no chance of any cool out there.. So can you expound.. I hope I misunderstood you... Thanks
     
  16. Stickman

    Stickman Member

    Re-read posts #12 & #13.

    Design conditions are at the extreme hot and cold ends of what is normally expected for your locale and what you plan on using for set temperatures. I.e. here in NY, when it’s 90F or higher my unit runs non stop to keep inside at 72F. If I raise the set temp or it cools down outside, the unit cycles on and off. This is what the manual J spelled out for me.

    Good luck!
     
  17. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    So i could deal with 24x7 during 90-95 but I dont think so at 73... remember i said at 73 it runs 24x7 and when it hits 80 it can no longer keep up with the 24x7 run it does keep up as long as the temp is below 80-85 but it never stops ever....so your thoughts are that the mfg may be willing to say my system is doing its best and that is just the way it is. .24x7 for 6 months of the year.. wondering if it will be doing the same for the coldest months of the year.
    And does this mean my down stairs unit is oversized it only runs 10-15 min each hour and keeps it nice and cool and humidity free.. I could downsize it to 1 ton from 3 and get it to run 24x7 like it partner the upstairs unit if that is normal but i dont think so...
    Here it is 8:00 am and its 74 outside and the up is running like a big dog.. down is quiet as a mouse.. top still pulling 10 gallons condensate each 24 hours while down pulls 1 pint. If down was running even half a day i could understand it... but nope averages 10-15 min per hour.. and up runnng 45 min and resting 15.. i could deal with that to..

    I am beginning to suspect my thermostat since it does seem cool enough but i have an old wall thermometer and they are so inaccurate its no help.. maybe i need to go out and buy a good thermometer to find out what the temp really is... anybody have any suggestions for the best temp gage for the money and where to get it.... dont want to spend too much since one time use.

    Reason for suspect thermostat is the fact that i closed off the big bedroom and watched the reading the air temp dropped another 8 degrees and the inlet dropped another 10 and after 2 hours it still would not rest.. and it felt like 72 in the room..

    Even though you run 24x7 at 90 i am pretty sure you would not be happy with 24x7 at 77 outside would you... mine is 24x7 at 77 and at 80 it can no longer keep up even with the 24x7.
    So your thoughts are that moving up to a 3 ton would only worsen the humidity and still not give my systems some rest time.. (see the problem is it never got sized - the old seat of the pants method was used) but i do agree 2 tons SHOULD cool 800 feet ok.. so I am between a rock and hard spot do i force an upsize and get stuck with humidity.. or just leave it to hell alone and suffer thru buying 3 more geo units in 30 years with the increased electric costs. Hope the Trane rep will shine some light on it but i am not holding my breath as the reps tend to hang with the contractors for fear of losing sales.. as I am only one person the contractor might be buying 50-60 units a year and can easily switch to Bosch if you give them a hard time.

    Thanks for your input...
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  18. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    What have they said is the supply air temp and return air temp (aka EAT & LAT)

    Air handler is in the attic I assume, how much insulation on the duct work? Is ductwork leaking?

    Either it's not making enough cold air ( refrigeration charge issue) or way more heat gain then unit can handle.

    What was cooling that area before the Trane went in?
     
  19. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    Before Trane it had a Florida Heat Pump for 30 years split with the compressor in a controlled environment.. downstairs under the stairwell next to the single Florida heat pump.. and I don't remember it running 24x7 else we would have had a notorious electric bill as we do now... but it did use REAL freon back in those days..
    The installers used some fancy Temp gages (very accurate) in the pt ports on setup and claimed the temp was fine.. I have been measuring the PT brass (using my temp Ray gun) (not that accurate) and find slight mods between EAT 70.0 in and LAT 76.5 out which I think is ok.. so we know its working hard.. just wonder if its too hard due to undersize as its pulling out 10 gallons a day of condensate..
    Air handler is in attic.. compressor in garage downstairs. Duct work as identified is all new and spastic sealed.. have run my hand over many areas and all joints and feel no air there is a tiny leak in the air handler where the cover closes but not much..air is escaping.. Refrigeration has been checked by 2 different techs at 2 different times and they both say its fine base on pressure and temperature... but I did not see the actual gage readings so that i could match it to the chart.
    I made some pix of the ducting but they came out horrible will try again later.. actual Inlet to handler is about 10 feet from the intake thru flex hose...
    Trunk is standard rectangular box... however was never Manual D.. so not sure how close it is to right..
    Troubleshooters from two different 3rd party HVAC companies spent damn near all thier time trying to prove it was all a water problem and claiming that due to the 30 psi backpressure in the return to the open well i needed to have a well man run me a new return line. And Zero time has been spent with Manual J and/or D to see if I am sized right... with only 800 square feet 2 tons should be plenty.. but we have not found any system faults and if the system is right about the only other option is to upsize but I have not pushed that as it may now shut down sometimes but i may have massive humidity.. and they would be saying I told you so.. so i have not pushed that too hard. Hope to get a Trane Rep out next week but my experince is they hang with the contractor so that may not help..
    I want the TRANE rep to tell me face to face that that is how it is with our system.. when you hit 77 its a 24x7 run.. from there out.. but my guess is he is not going to admit to that shit....

    Thanks for giving suggestions.
     
  20. tommytx

    tommytx Member

    In case anyone is wondering why is the Upstairs Trane Compressor in the garage when the old Florida Heat Pump compressor was under the stairwell in a nice controlled environment... Simple my dumb ass contractor did not tell me until install day that the Trane they installed was so dang big it had to be installed sidewise and all trim must be removed from the access door and there sure as heck was not room for the upstairs trane compressor to fit next to the monster trane for the down stairs... in the understairway room.. so the compressor for upstairs had to be relocated to the garage in 80 degree heat. Someone may notice that i mention up there that my downstairs Bosch was doing well might say.. Bosch???? I thought you just said your 3 ton Trane was so large it had to be installed sidewise and could not be serviced that way.. Yep I did so I made them take out the down stairs trane (the 3 ton 2 stage monster) and replace it with a smaller Bosch (3 ton 2 stage) that would fit just fine without stripping my trim off the under stairwell door.. Are you confuse yet.. I am... so far i have written a 200 page book on just the screw ups alone. And this circle jerk is being performed by an original contractor and two unrelated subcontractors and not one of the 3 have any idea what they are doing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018

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