Do i really need 10 ton's or does my math stink?

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by tonyinvermont, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    last call

    I think you need a good driller.

  2. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    Quotes are coming in

    Well it's been a while but were still moving forward slowly. Another well driller quotes me 17000 for a 600mfooter plumbed to basement and that's 7k higher Than the last guy although that does not figure my excavation to the house. Thinking that the 10k quote is sounding the best. Here is an email from a gshp consultant that I found for anwater furnace.
    The COP for the TMW 060 is shown as 3.8 for a ground water loop (in your case a well). The incoming temp should not be an issue with a well as it should be around 50 degrees.
    The price I quoted includes those options. You will need the buffer tanks.
    If an HVAC contractor were involved they would probably do a heat loss calc for you but if not, your method is probably the best. If you have fuel consumption for specific years you could back figure it that way too.
    In a message dated 10/7/2011 2:07:55 P.M. SA Western Standard Time, writes:
    Thanks for the update.*That price includes those upgrades i assume?*Do you have a cop vs enter load temp breakdown on That model? *Hoping to keep in
    High 3's pushing 120f water. *Do you ALso *suggest a couple of 40 gal buffers or will that unit keep up with demand? *Thanks for the info and what not. *Also-do you have suggestions on how I can get my load calculated? Thinking of buying the manual j software for fifty bucks one home use and doing itmyself * Seems after I do that I will Able to take my baseboard runs and see what delivery per foot I will get to match my heat/loss load.*
    Sent from my iPhone

    On Oct 7, 2011, at 12:58 PM, wrote:

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I'm getting my feet back on the ground here on St. Croix and it's been pretty hectic.
    Given your knowledge of geothermal I think the best way for me to help you is as an advisor and*as a purchasing agent for the heat pump. I did some research on the high temp heat pump from ClimateMaster that can get up to 145 degrees but its very expensive and not big enough for your application. It lists for over $12,000 and is only 3 tons.
    I think what you're looking for will be approximately 6 tons. The Climatemaster TMW 060 is a water to water heat pump that lists for $7807.00 The options I'd recommend are the Cupro Nickel coil $527.00(for corrosive water) the 5 year extended warranty $500.00 (makes 10 years total) and shipping will be around $200. The total list is around $9000. I could get it*there for*$7200.00. *I'm sure you can find other heat pumps for a little less but ClimateMaster is one of, if not the best as far as I'm concerned. I've been offered franchise deals on other equipment and turned them down due to less than stellar reviews.
    I'll charge a token $250 for my consulting services and lend you my expertise as you need it.
    If this sounds good to you let me know and we can work out the details.
    Brent C. Whitney
    I Land Energy

    Thought I would include it for all my new friends out here

    Also I am having my propane dealer send all my gas bills for the last years to see if I can post that to help find tonnage as I am having trouble finding some one suitable to do it properly. If that doesn't work I am thinking of using the fifty dollar software approach if u guys think it's doable for a guy with avg intelligence
  3. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    fuel usage

    Hi guys.. here is a pdf showing my last 5 years of propane usage.. i tried to look on line for a way to convert it but no avail; so again i turn to the experts here
    docjenser seems to be the resident expert as i see he has data for heating days and other things i know little about:confused:
    the usage is again for hotwater through my boiler into a indirect tank and my utica is 87%- so if you guys do the math and that tonnage is right and that guy from I land energy is correct and the prices seem good to you sounds like i got a package?:(:rolleyes::) (gotta like these stupid smiliy's!)
  4. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Personal Information

    A kind suggestion to remove the above noted personal information (name/phone #) of the contractor.
  5. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member


    sorry didnt realize that i had posted that.. i cant figure out how to edit that info.. can a moderartor take care of that?
    also i see that my attach of fuel usage didnt get sent was that due to anything in particular..
    i will try that now
    thanks guys

    Attached Files:

  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Your worst usage seemed to be during 2006/2007 season, with 1759 gallons of usage. Again, matched with BIN data from Vermont (AFB) was 56675 BTU/H at -6F 97.5% design temp. Now this includes your hot water heat, which should be at least 11 MMBTU annually, if you are a 2 person household (about 9% of your annual consumption).
    You increase your capacity with higher EWT with an open well, but you lower it again running your heatpump with 130F degrees supply temp. You loose a few degrees again with a buffer tank for the hydronics. The rating is at 104 F degrees Leaving Load Temp. So at the end you will have again 48,500 KBTU capacity with the 5 ton CM W-W. If at the worst day you are shutting down your DSH, you should be fine. Or run the heat element in the buffer tank as the second stage on the coldest days. Or get a 6 ton heatpump. Many ways to skin the cat. Or get ductwork and a 4 ton water-air. Your baseboard approach is still concerning running at the highest temperatures.
  7. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    thanks for the help Doc!

    Hey Doc; i do really appreciate that you took the time to figure this out for me. This attest to the facts that forums are a great way to share information due to the kindness of people like YOU! thanks for this.
    Regarding the information that you garciously provide i will look at the 5 ton and look at some of these low temp. baseboard replacements.. i might consider waiting a year to see what i get for performace from the current stuff (hoping that the stuff was over "rule of thumbed" when installed.
    Still concerned how to get the well water into the house and not loose any "heat" from it seeing it will be near the surface because of the shallow shale under just a couple of feet. still considering a outdoor furnace type insulated pipe to do this but will wait to hear from others.
    Another question is regarding the dumping of return water; thinking of heading the bleed water to the foundation perimeter drain but dont want to influx the thing with to much water if it wont handle it? is this common practice?

    I am chomping at the bit to get started but still waiting for our lender to finialize our refi.; the banks are hard lenders these days and are making sure they have us overqualified (which is nasty for a self employed guy not showing much income) and looking like it may be getting real cold out when we install this sucker...

    Thanks guys and hope others are finding some info helpful in these postings!
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Frost is usually not that deep. I have seen 18 inches here in Buffalo, not more. You can insulate the pipes. Keep in mind that the entering water is around 50 degrees "hot" and heats the ground around, and the colder it is outside, the more flow you will have through it.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  9. surviverguy

    surviverguy Member

    While you are trying to decide which way to go- Caleffi Idronics is a good free reference that might help you decide which way to go. If you decide to insulate the piping- keep it dry as wet insulation is almost useless.
  10. surviverguy

    surviverguy Member

    "Another question is regarding the dumping of return water; thinking of heading the bleed water to the foundation perimeter drain but dont want to influx the thing with to much water if it wont handle it? is this common practice?"
    It has been done before but it depends on site conditions. It is not recommended in general as you don't want water issues around or under your house. Consider Where the foundation drains to or another dumping place.
  11. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    The Sage Continues

    Hi all; what can i say; its been a while but it took a while to get some dough!
    anyhow looks like i am moving forward on a 700foot well in the following days and have met with the installer of my choice who thinks i should go with a florida heat pump; although i was thinking of going with a waterfurnace as they seem to be the major player out in the heat pump world. Thoughts?
    another question arises as to hot water generation. Mark; the heating contractor thought i should keep my boiler for backup and hot water generation which i really didnt want to do.. hoping to do away with the beast. I am hoping to be enlightend on the proper way to heat hot water .. should i use a storage tank with an element or should i just get a high eff. hot water heater to do the dhw? This should mean i would have two storage tanks for my layout one a buffer for the heat and one for DHW i believe.. your thoughts again fellas would be apprceiated.
    I plan to take all sorts of install pics from drilling forward to hope to share the experince with everyone.
  12. surviverguy

    surviverguy Member

    A single 700 foot well....standing column? Florida Heat Pump FHP is now Bosch geothermal. Is your idea now to go forced air with a desuperheater?
  13. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    1) Waterfurnace is not "the" major player. To my knowledge, Climatemaster has the most sales and with Bosch in the game FHP has the biggest bank. Further many components are purchased from the same vendors and even design teams have switched companies making the quality very similar.
    What isn't similar is distribution practices. The WF business plan is dealer direct which IMHO is inferior to products that have local distributor support. Unless a dealer decides to spend a lot of dough on part inventory, a customer will often have to wait for the mail if they need something.

    2) I don't know your electric vs fuel oil prices, but in general I would lean towards electric water heat. Often cheapr to operate, it is simple and has far less to break than an indirect fired system, though recovery tends to be much slower.

    3) If you are employing a DSH, yes you would have a buffer tank upstream of the (powered) finish tank.
  14. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    I see the light.

    Well as to what brand inwill take the advice of u folks over the advice of the wf dealer that was steering me that way I wanted to look at the Bosch but haven't but will now. My geo buddy that installs my be right after all

    What's the story with going dsh or zoning the output. I am looking at heating only so maybe the elec wh with pre heat from the pump? Our elec is like .17 peak yikes !
  15. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

  16. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    Desuperheater VS Zonevalve

    my question was regarding the best way to get hot water for DHW... the unit will be used for winter heating only as we dont really use ac here in vermont and my wife is more of the open window type. Seems the DSH (desuper) is designed to use the waste heat generated during cooling and not so much when heating as the heat load will use all the heat. looking now at using a instant on bosch water heater to supplement the heat to a storage tank (finishing tank) for the dhw. .. Really was hoping to not us propane at all in the heating cycle but the installer says that 120' water is not hot anough and it will need to have some added boost for DHW use?

    hear are some of the pics i have been promising

    one is of my current setup that i am hoping to rid myself of - yes i plumbed it- yes it works well; but 4500yr... then of course the house; drilling rig and drilling..
    posted a drilling vid here
    Geothermal Well Drilling - YouTube

    the good news is today they dug 660 feet and well was replenshing at 20GPM--
    they say that its very good.. in fact they had 13gpm at 300ft 19gpm at 500 and i said go for what we discussed- and 660 was the target- as we are going to try to have little bleed i thought we would go deep...
    still plan on bleeding to my footing drains but hope i dont create a river! Lol:eek:

    Attached Files:

  17. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    zoning is a term that (generally in hvac context) describes different areas in one building conditioned with seperate thermostats. Hot water boilers can have multiple tstats and zone valves as can forced air or more than one heat plan can be used.
    That is why I didn't understand your question, I thought you wanted to heat with DSH.

    That cleared up. I would use DSH and electric or propane finish tank. Or go on demand with your WTW geo.
  18. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member



    Smile; yes Smile-

    Seven months with GSHP heat/hot water..
    So far so good..
    cost of system installed
    less than 27k (doing some of the work myself)
    i can break these cost down if anyone cares
    the Bosch Heat pump has been fabulous although a little noiser than expected (its a big boy tho)

    savings ... well; were about half of what we were spending on propane... figure about a 7 year payback
    put 10.5k PV on roof of south facing garage this summer - so our heat is now *free*... or should i say "prepaid"-- the way i figure it is by installing all this hi. eff. stuff were just prebuying our power/heat at a better rate!

    If any one has questions or is interested in pics or more details drop me a PM or whatnot

    Again i appreciate all the help on this Forum--

    ps- its almost worth all the money in the project to just have all the head scratching friends looking at the system and trying to figure how it works LOL!

  19. tonyinvermont

    tonyinvermont New Member

    oh i forgot-

    after rereading some of the above postings i forgot to mention that domestic hot water DHW did not need any post geo finishing.. have two tanks (75gal) of storage for DHW and have it set for 115F... the water in the storage for the geo is set for 119F and has seemed to be fine; :D

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