Cycle Stop Valve

Discussion in 'Open Loop' started by ldameron, Mar 4, 2009.

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  1. ldameron

    ldameron New Member

    Hello Group:

    I am a newbie to this site but in a short time visiting this site I have gained a lot of good information. I thought I would share some information that I have done to make my geo system better. To start I have a 4000 sq ft home, a five ton down and a 3 ton up open loop, 1 well system, I think 20 gpm pump, 80 gal tank.
    I always had a problem with the 3 ton, when running by it self, the pump would cycle on and off every 30 seconds, bad for the pump.

    I installed a cycle stop valve that I found on the internet and guess what, the pump does not cycle anymore. When there is more than 1gpm demand the pump stays on.

    Now, is this good or bad?? I need some opinions.
    Thanks
    Leonard
     
  2. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    cycle stop valves

    I will not throw stones
    Eric Sackett
    weberwelldrilling.com
     
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    WP

    You are correct.

    Say hello first.

    We have new folks and that is very goooooooooooood
     
  4. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sorry

    Hello and Welcome,

    I am going to be a nicer person.
     
  5. ldameron

    ldameron New Member

    Hello waterpirate:

    Thanks for your replies. I guess I don't understand. All I know is it seems my whole system is better with cycle stop valve. The pump was cycling on & off every 30 seconds. I've had my well installer to look at it. He really didn't have a good solution other than add a lot of storage tanks or new variable speed pump. Doesn't pump cycling cause the pump to wear out faster and cost more to operate? I have been fighting these issues for 17 years. The cycle stop valve keeps constant pressure in system all the time even when the geotherm are running.
    thanks
    leonard
     
  6. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hi leanord,

    It is true that the starting and stopping causes premature failure.

    What size pump do you have now? Please express in gallons per minute.
    If you have a 8 ton system your water requirement should be no more than 24 gallons per minute and no less than 16 gallons per minute when both systems are operating, plus domestic supply. That is the rub, the systems rarely operate together for the same duration, your water usage is variable.

    Variable speed pumps are not the buget busters they used to be. You can find wholesalers on line to provide the pump you would need for about 1,200.00. If you have a 20gpm pump it is either producing way more than it's rating or the pump is bigger.

    The cost of a quality 20gpm pump can easily be 750.00 and up. The question really is how many of the 750.00 variety will you install as opposed to purchasing a variable speed that will go the distance?
     
  7. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    size matters

    The size of the tank matters also, say for instance you do have a 20 gpm pump, and you have an 80 gal tank, is this tank a bladder style or a hydro-neumatic?

    I know my geo takes 1.5 gpm per ton i have a 4 ton unit thats 6 gpm, with the new variable speed pump the liquid end is a 27 gpm F&W. they have about the best proformance curve in my opinion :D i haven't moved into house but soon, we have sold our old town house and are almost ready to move.

    As far as the cycle stop i have to agree with the premature death of your pump. It puts extra pressure on the liquid end. Along with the added heat

    Another thing when you say you have an 80 gal tank is it an actual 80 gal tank? bladder tanks that are equal to an 80 is awful small for a 20 gpm pump. ifn it's a standard hydro tank 80 is still too small for 20 gpm, my suggestion would be 2 120 tanks "hydro style" or one bladder tank that is an actual 80 capacity.

    The bad part is all these suggestions we have all cost money prolly more than to just pony up and buy a variable speed pump.
     
  8. ldameron

    ldameron New Member

    Hello Group:

    Sorry it took so long to get back had to go into hospital Sunday night for Appendix,Surgery, home now & doing ok.

    Back to the questions: I have an 80 gal tank not a bladder tank, I think my pump is 18 or 24 gpm, 3/4 horse power I have replaced the pump once at a cost of $1000, I think 5 years ago.
    Cycle Stop Valves, Inc. this is where I got the idea and decided to try it. Why would the pump mfg warranty the pumps if you use one?

    Thanks guys
     
  9. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Glad to hear

    you are home and doing well.

    Do not laugh or cough for a few days.

    Get with waterpirate he is one of the best here.
     
  10. geo fan

    geo fan Member Forum Leader

    you may have to put air in the tank
    Have you addressed that recently?
     
  11. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    holy appendix batman!

    Jeeeeshhhh I am really blushing now.
    Thanx Mark.

    Glad to hear you are fine and doing well!
    Any pump, any manufacturers will for the most part go to hell and back for the first year no matter what you do to it. After the first year if the warrranty extends beyond that, you paid for insurance you did not know you purchased. The manufactures and the dealers play the odds.

    As for tank size, that is a whole nother ball of wax. Please supply the make and model and I will try to guide you through the myth between actual and equivalant storage volumes, that directly relate to pump run times.

    The most common wet end put on a 3/4 hp pump is an 18 gpm. All the manufactures recommend a minimum run time of 1 minute to allow the electric motor to cool. More run time is better. No matter what tank you have if the pump will not stay on and run for 1 minute minimum you need more storage, or the storage you have is not working properly.
     
  12. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    My point

    well made.

    WP, when your hair turns grey it is brains leaving the ship.

    I know a good person/mechanic when I type with them.

    No blush needed here we just raised the bar a small notch.

    To steal from Mark Eatherton, we are all here to learn and then teach.

    MHO
     
  13. ncgeo

    ncgeo Member

    I'm new to this GHPC forum but have been a recent regular on the Terry Love Pump and Well Forum http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4
    With regard to CSV there are at least 2 pump installers posting on that forum who swear by them (not at them). Interesting to see an opposing opinion here. In fact this is the first negative opinion I've seen on CSVs.

    I'm running 2 WaterFurnace open loop systems with a total demand of 9 GPM. I currently have my 12 GPM pump (in a shaloow well so produces more than 12 GPM) paired with an 86 gallon tank but am still cycling the pump about 10 times an hour with both systems running. So I bought a CSV but have not installed yet. Was also considering downsizing the tank so the pump would not have to run in "refill" mode very long (heat pumps off, CSV flowing 1 GPM to refill tank). I fear overheating the pump during that time.
     
  14. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    pump facts

    Hi and welcome,

    An electric motor is the happiest when it is off or on. Not when it is starting and stopping, and certainly not when it is laboring under a high load. So much research has allready been done on this. Way more than I could hope to explain (cue engineers) about the effects on the motor when you minipulate output. Amp loads,current usage. The effect on the wet end I have allready explained. Stop/breath/think/ it is common sense.
     
  15. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Water

    if I make it right I am sure you will drill in Ohio.

    I have tried Yoder out of millersberg, worked with them in the Ohio gas/oil boom in the 70's.

    I know you know our product and will make sure my great great grand babies will have water to drink.

    Much thanks.

    Mark

    PS. I'll keep them warm and cool.
     
  16. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I just visited the cycle stop website. Good listings of their product.

    Beware the machine:p
     
  17. Valveman

    Valveman Guest

    There are a lot of misconceptions about how pumps work. Throttling a pump does not make it work harder. Throttling a pump reduces the amp draw and actually reduces the load on a pump and motor. Pumps are designed to work almost anywhere along it’s performance curve. The deeper a well or the more pressure required, the less flow you get from a pump. The shallower the well or the less pressure required, the more flow the pump will produce. The CSV just puts artificial head on a pump to make it think it is in a deeper well when less water is being used.
    The thrust bearing in a submersible motor is designed to carry the load when the pump is in the deepest well possible. All you have to do is keep the thrust bearing cool and the thrust bearing will last a long time. When the CSV is restricting the pump, the amps drawn by the motor are reduced, and the motor is producing less heat. The motor is being de-rated. A de-rated motor can safely pump hot water, so it takes very little cool water flow to maintain adequate cooling.
    There has never been a single motor or pump destroyed by a properly installed Cycle Stop Valve. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true. The CSV has already proven to increase the life of most pumps by a factor of 3 or 4 times. The main thing that destroys pumps is excess cycling and variable speed drives. Variable speed drives are very hard on motors and there are pages of information on why this is true. Even Grundfos who makes one of the better VFD available, is into their 6th generation of changes in only 10 years, because these systems don’t work well and don’t last very long.
    I think it is funny that the original poster is happy and sees the benefits of the CSV, and others here are trying to tell him that what he sees and knows for a fact is not true.
    I don’t fault anyone for their first thought of how a CSV works. I had those same reservations myself about 18 years ago. However, in these 18 years I have learned the error of my original thinking and realize from the many thousands of pumps using CSV’s, that they actually make pumps last much longer than normal. I suggest anyone who has had a single problem with a CSV system to post the specifics so we can figure out the real cause of the problem, because I guarantee the CSV was not the problem.
    Anyone with real experience knows that VFD’s are the ones who cost a lot and don’t last very long. However, I know there is a lot of brain washing going on from pump and motor manufacturers who want you to buy VFD products that cost a lot and don’t last very long.
     
  18. Rancher

    Rancher New Member

    CSV Magic

    Ahhh yes the Terry Love site...

    Terry was convinced to make the vice president of the Cycle Stop Valve company a Moderator a couple of years ago $$$ probably...

    Valveman = Cary Austin (vice president of CSV, his wife actually owns the company)
    Speedbump = Bob Tabar (sells the highly profitable CSV)
    Porky = Howard Cutter (North East Coast CSV rep)

    Valveman either deletes negative posts about his wonderfull invention, or he bans the poster.

    I am banned.

    I evaluated his valve a couple of years back, logging:

    1. water pumped
    2. cycles per day
    3. power consumed

    For equal gallons pumped, it cut cycles almost in half, but it consumed 2.5 times as much power. Over a 7 year life of a common pump my additional power usage would have been over $800, more than enough to replace the pump.

    His valve has also been evaluated by Amtrol:

    http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/jlanearticle.pdf

    They probably wouldn't if they knew you had one, however the pumpman gets paid to replace it, so he isn't going to tell on you, and the pump manufacter never sees the setup.

    Just my $.02

    Rancher (aka John)
     
  19. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hi John and welcome,

    Thank you for sharing that data!! I was afraid after that last post that I was in for a bashing and no one to help. lol

    The internet is a funny thing, and so are forums. I am here because we seem to be able to discuss theory and field results without getting censored or deleted or banned or all in an uproar. I take offense at the poster saying that we are in need of a "good understanding of pumps" but what ever.

    Here is my data:Small community with two 4 inch supply wells.

    Community grew, bigger pumps were installed without adding more storage. 5hp pumps began to fail like clockwork every 14 months. I pulled the pumps and reccomended that more storage be added to meet or exceed the manufacturers recomendation of 2min.



    I installed more storage to get the pumps cycle time to a comfortable four minutes, and the same pumps are still running, 8 years later.
     
  20. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    VALVEMAN

    Is it true you are the VP of CSV? If so...MAN UP!!! GROW A PAIR AND IDENTIFY YOURSELF!! I, not unlike most others, have ZERO respect for someone trying to hide their identity while acting as if they were just joe average using a product. If your product performs as you say, POST the studies showing proof for ALL to see... or are you afraid??

    Bergy
     
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