New York ClimateMaster TZ22: Systematic LT1 crash on stage 2

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by llaforest, Dec 8, 2014.

  1. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    @ AMI Contracting:
    Measurments taken with factory installed sensors. LT1 not easy to measure with external probe. GPM measured with the drop out line, so it's accurate both on flow and temperature.
    There are no lock outs, the freezing protection has been cut and a flow switch installed to ensure that no flow = no compressor.
    It's hard to have an installer drive 2 hours to check what might no even be a problem, we always end up with 1000$ bill when someone comes, so yoou will understand we do as much as we can by ourselves.
    The warranty is limited in my case since I opperate at the boundaries of ClimateMaster Open Loop specs. With all my experiements, I find their numbers are too conservative but I don't bother arguing that with them. The fact is that the system is working, I might not like the numbers but it is working.

    Cheers,
    Laurence.
     
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Does it stay running?
     
  3. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Very high (>200*F) compressor hot gas discharge temperature strongly suggests compressor suction is being starved of refrigerant. Hermetic (whole thing, motor and vapor pump entirely within a welded can) compressor windings and friction producing parts are almost entirely cooled by flow of suction side refrigerant through over and around.

    Refrigerant starvation likely caused by loss of charge or stuck TXV.
     
  4. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    Yes it runs basically 24h/24h 7 days in these times. It heats up the house fine, it's just numbers are not good.
     
  5. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    Hello Curt, this is exactly the kind of things I would like to try... Is there a way to check the TXV, I already tried to reverse to cooling and back to heating and no changes in the numbers. About the loss of charge, I suppose I have to wait for a tech to verify, I do not have necessary equipment.

    Don't know if you knew from thread history, but numbers were fine during the first month... Then they got worst like what I have now after the first month.

    Cheers,
    Laurence
     
  6. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    llaforest, Just saw you had replied to me. Okay well I would run the model/serial with your installer and see if you fall into the series that calls for an additive
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  7. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    What do you mean by an additive? I assume that to claim anything under warranty, I need to find the problem first right? To find the problem, I would like to avoid paying 1000$ to have a tech come over the country house and investigate. If I can find a probable cause, then I will claim it under warranty, I know the machine has been registered and a full 10 years applies on it.

    Do you have any idea how to check if the TXV is disfunctionnal? Since it's a mechanical device controlled by suction line, I feel I do not have much ways of probing it... Maybe I can try to gently knock on it to make sure it's not jam in some position... If it's not the TXV, then it might be loss of charge but for that I need a tech. I also need to find out where it went if we lost it!

    Cheers,
    Laurence.
     
  8. heatoldhome

    heatoldhome Geo Student Forum Leader

    Some units require a additive to help the TV valve fully shift.

    That is what AMI is trying to say.
     
  9. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    What is this additive exactly? Is it mechanical or something we add in refrigerant?
     
  10. heatoldhome

    heatoldhome Geo Student Forum Leader

    From what I have Read its added to the refrigerant. Joe (AMI) can you confirm this?

    Not all units need this additive that's why Joe recommended you check with the installer to see if your unit needs it.
     
  11. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Cool, now we have stop leak and lube for refrigeration systems.

    Except for my EPA refrigerant ticket I can sell my tools and retire.

    Refrigeration stuff is not a science, it tends to become an art. One needs to "see" inter-reactions based on test equipment looking at numbers that move when one want to snap the picture of what the system is doing at this moment in time.

    Interpolation may be the word that best describes this action regarding the shift of the system. I can spend days in a basement looking at shifting numbers. I get paid to know when the sand dune stops moving, or the movement is all the system can do as it exists.

    Laurence: I think you need to add it to the refrigerant system. Go find a supply house and get EPA certified to handle refrigerants. The buy tools and continue on your journey.

    warm regards,
    Mark
     
  12. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Here's a post from GBT.
    "Turns out after all this time , the compressor itself that is installed in these heat pumps for a certain window of time came to the plant with a certain defect. The defect is that the compressor is filled with a certain oil that connects into the refrigerant loop. The oil was defective in that it gooped up the valves that open and close! There is an additive that can be shot into the refrigerant line that permanently fixes it! It actually fixed the problem!"

    So should be able to determine by serial #. Hopefully not $1,000.
    To check the TXV, one would check the superheat and subcool.
     
    Palace GeoThermal likes this.
  13. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    YES - I've gotten wind of this via tech bulletins from several air source heat pump manufacturers. A rust inhibitor used by a vendor to the compressor manufacturer is blamed for this. There is an additive, a Nu-Calgon product if memory serves, but TXV may also need replacement.
     
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I question if any of this stuff is correct out of the factory.

    I have been spanked more times than I care to admit, for not checking the "new" equipment to be correct as advertised

    Mark.
     
    Palace GeoThermal likes this.
  15. James Franke

    James Franke New Member

    Today I had a Climate Master technician review my problem. With loop water in the 40's the LT1 is at 15 degrees or lower and a compressor discharge over 200 degree. The unit can't maintain temperature. He determined that the Copeland Compressor was in the range of a recall problem. Seems they changed a chemical in the refrigerant that gums up the TXV. The solution is to charge with another chemical to clean it up. The contractor has to order it so the work hasn't been done yet but the Tech is confident that will fix the problem. If not it could mean replacing the TXV. I'll post again if there's still a problem.
     
  16. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Better living through chemistry.
     
  17. James Franke

    James Franke New Member

    Had the A/C Renew injected 2/11/16. No improvement. Had the TXV replaced and the refrigerant replaced 3/11/5. The LT1 is now where it should be but the compressor discharge is still 200+ and the unit can't keep up without Aux. I ran a Friedrich for 30 years without ever using Aux.
     
  18. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    Hello, sorry for the delay, for some reason I didn't received the notifications for new posts.

    Interesting James, my tech will come probably next week with the additive. I hope it will solve it and that no permanant damage has been done on the machine.

    @Joe, thanks for the explanation of the problem it makes sense.

    I will post the result of the additive. So far we run stable in stage1 because stage2 runs too low. At least we could use it a little.

    Laurence.
     
  19. James Franke

    James Franke New Member

    To make a long story short, Climate Master finally agreed the unit was a lemon and replaced it in June. There had been over $4,000 in warranty work. They did compensate me for most of the cost of using Aux - I had never used Aux for 30 years with the previous GWHP. One of the last tests concluded the unit was only operating at 60% of capacity - one ton short.
     
  20. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Nice to hear they are standing behind their products again.
     

Share This Page