Nebraska ClimateMaster Trilogy 45 qMode System

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Krishna, Apr 12, 2016.

  1. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    2000 sqft. 1954 build, not exactly "super tight". 4 ton may seem oversized, but time and data have shown its pretty much on target. Now if I tyveked the shell, etc... a smaller unit would've been called for.
     
  2. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Stick,
    The locals told me my Geothermal was oversized since I installed it myself. My next Unit will be larger. They were giving me an estimate for duct work. I think they thought I was going to say yes without a contract describing what I would get for the money. The estimate was $7,000 and they didn't write anything down for that small amount of money!
    I found a good Tin Smith, he designed, sized & built the duct per my lay out. I installed it all in order to mark the take offs, then took it down for cutting then reinstalled it.
     
  3. sodajerk

    sodajerk Member

    Does anyone know if it is generally recommended to size the auxiliary heater to be able to cover 100% of the load of the home in the event of the geothermal failing? Or is it typical to size it only to supplement the geothermal?

     
  4. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    Call me silly, but I've got an available gas tee about 3 feet from my heat pump. I've also got a (grown) child's bedroom about 6 feet away. Gas probably would have been less expensive than electric aux, but I sleep easier at night knowing that there is not a controlled burn going on.
     
  5. sodajerk

    sodajerk Member

    Here is another chart that people might find interesting. I wondered why the LWT looked like a heart beat, but I guess it refocuses on dumping the hot air into the water tank and when it does that it makes the LAT drop. If I am interpreting this correctly, it looks like the compressor only ever increases in output in order to keep the water heater temperature high. Anyone else have any input?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Soda,
    The Leaving Air Temperature drops to room temp when the Unit fan shuts off along with the compressor shutting off at Thermostat set point temperature.
    The spike to 110 degrees is strange, since when the Geothermal is running the max air temp should be the 103 degree line you get with the fan running. Just figured it out, on my Unit when it shuts down, the fan motor is hot to the touch. The heat is rising off of the fan motor is raising the entire temperature inside the Air Heat Exchanger & Fan box. That's the reason I'm looking for a back up fan motor. It's the only moving part in the Geothermal if you exclude Grundfos pumps for the DWHeater, or loop pumps. Motor bearing will wear out over time, especially if made in China.

    The Loop Exit Water Temperature needs to be on a graph with a smaller scale like 10 degrees between markings, since it drops 4 to 7 degrees when the Unit is Running. The 25 degrees between each scale line makes the EWT look flat. If you could change the scale to 10 degrees per line it would give a better example of what is going on.
     
  7. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Stick,
    Having a vented device like a wood burner converted to gas, or a vented Radiant heat device would make a great back up for when the Geothermal has a problem. Being able to keep the house warm while you look for parts to fix the problem, or wait until working hours to call a HVAC company will pay for the backup device, probably on the price of the first emergency call out.
     
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Geo units are sized and its nomenclature is for cooling.

    Thus a 4 ton unit is usually providing 48 KBTU cooling under rating conditions.

    For heating, each ton usually generates 9,600 btus/h, thus around 39,000 kbtu/h for a 4 ton system, depending on the manufacturer.

    Things change a bit with variable speed units and reinfection units, which are a bit over 10,000 BTUS per ton for heating.
     
  9. sodajerk

    sodajerk Member

    Doc,

    Can you answer whether it is typical to size the auxiliary heater to only be a supplement to the geothermal one to be large enough to provide 100% of the heating requirement in the event of failure of the geothermal system? I'm just worried if that is the case that a 10kw auxiliary heater would not be large enough to adequately heat my parent's home.
     
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'd say it daily typical. We only install typically 10 KW strip heaters, since the supplement heat units need is not that much, and it covers the house on normal winter days.
    So worst case scenario you have an unusual cold span, and your house drops down to 66F in case of a heat pump failure. But we know since our units send us a quick meal via the error reporting so the issue is usually fixed in a matter of hours.
     
  11. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am with Doc. Keep the house heating and fix the geo unit.
     
  12. sodajerk

    sodajerk Member

    Does anyone know if the Trilogy 45 has a built in humidifier? My parents system has an Aprilaire system attached to the Trilogy 45. My dad noticed that the controls for it were set to off. Yet the Trilogy 45 has set points for the humidity and the house has kept them at a relatively constant rate. This leads me to a few potential conclusions. One, the Trilogy 45 can control the Aprilaire. Two, it has an internal humidifier and the guy that did the install didn't realize that the Aprilaire was unnecessary. 3. Something else? Since I can't see the installation manuals I can't know what is typical. The Aprilaire has a winter and summer switch and some humidity settings. On the Trilogy you adjust humidity through the multiple thermostats. It made me wonder how could you have different humidities for different zones? Is it possible or would they all end up being the same anyway?

    Also, It's gotten down to 8F and the unit still hasn't hit 100% capacity but it has gotten into the 90's. The aux water heater did turn on this morning which was interesting because that was the first time that's ever happened.

    Anyone care to comment on what caused water heater aux to turn on? My parents weren't using the hot water at the time as far as I know.


    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
  13. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Soda,
    The Model Features Keys used to interpret all the features of a geothermal unit has never had a code letter for a Humidifier as an option that I've ever seen.
    A Humidifier would need a water source and water tank. Geothermal Units are jammed packed with components with no room for a Humidifier.

    In the winter the house air doesn't dry out when using a Geothermal Unit, due to the 100 degree air leaving the Registers, while a flame Furnace produces temperatures that dry the air out, requiring a humidifier. You don't need a humidifier to add air moisture in the winter because of this fact.

    That water heater is a super insulated large volume Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber tank that holds heat for a very long time. There must be a feature that shuts down the desuperheater water heater on compressor % Capacity or Loop Outlet temperature, so the desuperheater last heated the water heater at 7 pm and was shut down after that. Then hours later when the tank temperature reached the point where the heater elements needed to energize off of the electric company, they did.
     
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It is not the air temperature that drys out the conditioned air. It is infiltration of dry outdoor air to replace the air the went out the flue with the other products of combustion.

    I could see a need for adding humidity in a geo system depending on the house.
     

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