Climatemaster issues,,,

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Eric D, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Amen! Finally some is asking for the fundamentals of trouble shooting which would take much speculations away. Please post temperature and pressure data since impacted flow is the most common reason for error code 4.
    I also disagree with Curt, I have seen open systems without freeze protection and no flow seen frozen shut within 10-15 seconds (may be this is a northern problem....). Then the system can fool you since ice has built up on the inside of the coil, but there is still a lumen, but there is a high pressure delta, suggesting a high flow, when flow is actually less due to the smaller lumen, causing repeated shut downs. Simple way to test it is to run the unit in A/C mode (one of the reasons why they are recommended to be started in A/C when commissioned). If you hear the ice banging down in the pipes, you got yourself a hint.
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It is easy to check

    a switch or a thermister. Good point Doc.
  3. Simplifying trouble shooting

    I have a separate comment on the other site "My experiences with my new heat pump" or something like that, and I commented there that I added a King brand acrylic? water flow meter selected for my tonnage range to quit guessing about flow.

    I am not against putting gauges in the "Pete's ports, but it seems to me a lot simpler to have a true flow gauge like the King or Hedland to show accurate flow in real time.

    And it seems to me that installers (They are professionals aren't they?) should put them in in the first place and just quote / charge extra for it during the installation.

    I personally think that a lot of open loop heat pumps are just arbitrarily adjusted for high flow that may be too high in the winter; i.e; so high that you have a small Delta T with not enough time for heat transfer.

    That might contribute to low temperature lock outs.

    Another thing that happens is lets say you attempt a 5 degree setback in December.or January. Your system is open loop and the line coming from the well is only 5 feet down from walking ground surface. If it is 45 degrees outside, what will be the temperature of the water in the line we are talking about that has not been flowing much water for 2 hours?

    How about close to 45 degrees for the first 2 - 5 minutes until we flow actual water pumped from 110 feet below. You will slowly gain 5 - 8 degrees, or the actual temperature of the water below. You did the setback at bedtime, 10:00 PM and now at 12:30 AM comes the initial lockout. You reset it once or twice, and eventually it stays running.

    At any rate that flow meter on the outlet side allows you to "tune" stage one, and stage two flow (full call) and see total flow and quit guessing about the thing.
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That does not make much sense to me. Yes, the delta T decreases with an increase in flow, the heat extraction actually slightly increases with higher flow, heat transfer will always occur. I yet have to see a low temp lockout due to low flow, especially with an open system.
  5. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I see it all the time (usually a plugged drain or sediment filter).

    HVAC tech, I'm not sure It matters how one monitors flow. We install flow gauges, but most home owners don't maintain them so with our iron here they can't be read when we get there. In their absence we would just plug in a test gauge instead of having to take the time to clean one (risking leaks et al). Since we don't base our practices on cynicism I continue to install them hoping for diligent H/O's (or less iron in the water:D).
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I meant to say that I have yet to see a low temp lockout of HIGH flow. Sorry I misspoke.
  7. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I think we could safely say that it would be impossible:D
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    May be he misspoke, too.
  9. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No I think some people feel a low delta T means poor extraction even if gpm is high.
  10. I agree, gotta do the math of the absorption.

    Did you see the available Variable 3rd Party rated ahri raw data- EER's 42.1
    and ETL current listings EnergyStar(tm)? EER's 30.8 - 31+ (wf and hydro-temp, AR)

    ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2013: Geothermal Heat Pumps : ENERGY STAR

    At Med-Low blended ahri testing Trane 40; CMaster/Carrier 40.5; WFurnace 41 and
    Arkansas Corp: Hydro-Temp VStar Series variable (Iq) 4ton 49K output ::: EER 42.1

    now some GT HtP OEM's CM, WF, maybe one other than Hydro-Temp Corp, AR, of the above have on-demand Hot Water, but some without much experience currently experience control issues.

    One that we have seen since 1993, overcomes INSTANT-Reclaim full-condensing HW with OEM 4zn board controller built in. Using 1981 patented (patents are up) INSTANT full-Reclaim-Heat-in-Cooling mode Hot Water heating of Hydro-Temp (AR) has been,well, just greatly successful about a better Priority Hot Water heating for these past 2 decades.

    Since most hours of system operation with the Variable Compressors is in Low-Medium staging, there is the reason a lowest- annual fuel utilization is realized.

    (note : many dual compressor 3-Staging configurations since the 70's of Hydro-Temp have to date out-performed Variable Air Source/ Mini-Splits in such as extensive KY schools testing to date. Variable VStar ETL Listed Energy Star(tm) rated systems are just "the icing on the cake".

    Highest Efficiency Systemics regarding Earth-Coupled ground loops in the Northern zones 4 and up having entering fluids of just 2.7 to 2.9 gpm per compressor tons of the REAL TONNAGE of the compressors inside the "rated boxes " of GeoThermal heat pump systems allow for such as a single 1/6th hp pump to operate "rated size 5" -- those 4-to-4.1/2 ton compressors very well on up to 5 x 3/4" pipes in ground with enough loop-piping (performance guaranteed) to provide entering fluids over 34f (18% methanol).
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sure, you can go down to 2.5 gpm/ton. Even my 6 ton is running with (1) 26-99. It depends on the size of the header pipe, the length of pipes and the number of circuits. Sometimes you need to go with 6 or 7 circuits, and cut down the length. You just re-affirmed that pressure drop calculation are important.
  12. NICE ! Size-6t ~ 5.1/2 ton compressor/ one -99 ! hitting the 22 to 25 GT Tons/1-horsepower of high efficiency circulators/GT designing! ~1-1.1kw just wont operate well on 25 tons of mini's , comparitively, -outdoor 'condenser-evaps' with those awaiting all the ambient terrors, & increasing equipment thefts of outdoor units today , eh/ -me thinks.

    DJ: How has your "blow the doors off MINI's mostly" Earth-Coupled GT systems been?! Good to hear from you ! Any WEL-Server apps of the great circulation efficiencies?

    Hydro-Temp taught at the training in the 90's and posted on their distributor price sheets, '1 pump per 6 (Compressor-Tons) "size -rated like others' 7-t units. [[meaning their 6 ton may have a 72k to 75k compressor inside found in "older than variable compressor/ forced-air cabinets called 7-"ton" units] or 6ton actual water:water, I trust you have known for many years].

    H-T as well as other OEM's also mentioned 2.5 gpm per ton [[Compressor-Ton,
    ~equates to say under 2.3 gpm/"size-rated-ton" in like with a 54k compressor in others "5-ton rated " units...
    2.5 gpm/Compr-T (c-T) regularly in their residential and especially school aplications : (H-T was shockingly presented at ASHRAE NY 2008 passing goals of a next years objectives to reduce annual school energy consumption per sq ft ) -- That 2.5 gpm/Compressor-Ton
    (also with loops never under 35f -EntFluids, though and other specs to get Summer EW under 85f in Southern climates as well)
    Record lows in EnergyUsage was within the Data by PE Seifert of KY school install then at 1.8kw per sq ft per school year..2007.! That reporting was nearly 40% lower energy consumption than projected "goals" by many school engineers. This was lower than any consumption of even more modern insulated "green" schools~ Dual compressor running within ~ 4-6% of today's Variable-fixed staging (residential) on "Stick-building retrofits to new construction: Earth-Coupled loop side Heat Exchnagers of nearly 2 decades under 3.1/2 ft TDH at the 2.5g/compressor-ton (2.65 gal/"rated-size-'ton' ") ...

    This hi-Efficiency pressire drop designed with TOTAL loop-systemic inclusive, all circuits and GT heat Pumps typically is under 22 ft TDH water. I shoot for 18ft TDH water. But that is also with pressure-less, reservoirs 5ft fluid levels ABOVE the pump intake for appreciable NPSH positive efficiency of the circulator.

    Last edited: May 14, 2013

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