Hi Folks, I have an annual maintenance contract with an HVAC service company that takes care of our ClimateMaster geothermal system, along with two air-sourced heat pumps. The technician who came to do our recent Fall service visit mentioned offhand that he had seen a geothermal system before. That got my attention. I asked him about the installer who had put in our geothermal system a couple of years ago, and he mentioned that all of the technicians with geothermal training had moved on to other employers. This bothered me, and the more I thought about it the worse it got. Our system has years of warranty coverage left. If our HVAC servicing company no longer has technicians trained to repair this equipment, will ClimateMaster honor their work? And aren't they under some obligation to tell us, so that we can find a company that has the required training and experience? When I asked their technician about how they can maintain our system without the geothermal training, he seemed confused. I mentioned that the installer ran checks specific to the geothermal well system, including measuring the water pressure and adding more when needed. He said that he would speak with his supervisor and call me back. He called later that afternoon and said that if there was a water pressure problem he would have seen a warning light flashing when he opened up the unit. He hadn't seen one, so it was fine. A while later he called again and said that his supervisor would come out to check the well water pressure next week. I wasn't asking them to do a pressure check, I just mentioned this as one of the things that I'd noticed that geothermal HVAC service requires. Is this situation as weird as it looks to me? They seem to be unqualified to do this service, and, possibly worse than that, also seemed to want to continue renewing our annual service contract despite this. Does it seem likely that ClimateMaster would still consider them qualified for in-warranty service? Is there a way to verify it? Thanks for any pointers. Scott C. in NC
Sorry, just noticed a goof in the statement above. In the first paragraph, it should say "the technician had not seen a geothermal system before." Oops
The FIRST thing we do, when checking a Geo, is perform a Heat of Extraction/ Heat of Rejection(HE/HR) test. The loop pressures, in and out, are recorded. The loop temperatures, in and out, are recorded. Those numbers allow us to find how many GPM are flowing through the loop field. We then multiply GPM by Temp change by 485 (For anti-freeze) or 500 (for water). This tells us how many BTU's are being extracted from the ground(heating) or rejected into the ground(cooling). If the loop pressure is low we "Juice" the loop to bring the pressures up. This simple test tells your tech MOST of what they need to know about your system. If the BTU's are within 10% of the performance numbers in the spec manual, the unit is operating fine and no further refrigerant side testing need be done. If your tech did not do the HE/HR he has NO clue how to work on a Geo and other services should be found. Bergy
I sometimes come across similar situations. Some HVAC companies were "one guy" GEO companies. By that I mean they had a single trained tech able to service geo systems. When he / she dies / quits / moves on, the company is bereft of geo capability, but they are loath to give up the annual maintenance contract client, so they send an air source only tech with directions to avoid the waterside and home for the best. That works, but only for awhile...
New development. I called the HVAC company couple of days ago, and asked if their company was certified for in-warranty ClimateMaster geothermal system maintenance. The office staffer who answered said that she would have to call me back. Yesterday morning, they called and cancelled the follow-up appointment, and recommended that I use a different HVAC company. They even gave me a contact name and phone number. I'm glad that I live in an area where there are a few geothermal companies operating. Scott C.
Geo usually does not require much service. Keep the filter clean, that is all you should and can do. We don't routinely check pressure (most are non pressurized anyway), or temperatures, unless something is not working correctly.
Geo may not need MUCH service, but what little service it needs best be performed by someone who actually knows what they are dealing with.
Well now I'm curious. When my original installer performed seasonal maintenance, he would proudly inform me of how efficiently the system was running. He'd also tell me how much water it needed in the coils (hardly any). After he moved on, the company that I used for a year or so didn't say much of anything, e.g. "It's doing fine." According to Bergy (above) an HE/HR test is step #1. To me, this seems like good preventative maintenance. But according to docjenser: We don't routinely check pressure (most are non pressurized anyway), or temperatures, unless something is not working correctly. So what should I expect? I have to admit that I like Bergy's answer better. It provides a handy number that might provide advance warning of a problem, for example coil leakage. But if these systems are so reliable that it wastes time to actively track their performance, I can take a hint. I'm interested in knowing whether there's a consensus here. Scott C.
If you pay someone to assess how your system is doing, there is little to do except check heat of extraction/rejection
Is there a guideline for what values of heat extraction/rejection to look for? Or just compare to to the values seen right after installation?
I would go with what Bergy said above - "If the BTU's are within 10% of the performance numbers in the spec manual, the unit is operating fine and no further refrigerant side testing need be done."
We do service calls. Quite a few in fact, as I'd say there are around 2000 geo systems in our general area. On a side note, I'd recommend gocanvas.com for anybody wanting to setup electronic forms. For us, we can send our field inspections directly by e-mail to the client while onsite. We can fill out the form on our phones and have setup built in calculations like COP based on inputs. Anyway, besides noting cosmetics such as water, dirt, etc., we directly measure: - capacitors, voltage, amps... - pressures (load, source) - temperatures (load, source) - we review controls and sequences - repair items such as pipe insulation And various other odds that come up. I will note, that many geo companies, just like conventional heating companies, may not do service work (or prefer not to). Or they just service their own work. So your mileage can vary as you have noted.
Out of curiosity Chris, have you found bad capacitor on a system that was still running leaving the clients unaware of trouble?
Yes. A couple of dozen outside 10% range, so we swap them out. Now, I have no idea if a capacitor "fades" in that fashion or just goes catastrophic. We are following the conventional HVAC guys in that regard.
What are conventional HVAC guys, (people), so I can be on guard. Like the nice local shop that installed an R-22 machine with an ECM drive blower as new and improved. The latest and the greatest with all analog controls just five or six years ago? I won. Power surge and/or lightening. I am too broke to buy a clue about unconventional Mark.
