Kansas Climatemaster duct problem

I haven't made it to your duct sizing yet. We haven't made it that far yet. We need to take it one step at a time so that you can understand.
We have only addressed your actual fitting methodology.
My statement if you actual read what I stated it is what NCI's study found and what we see everyday. I havent made it your sizing yet.
Which would be nice. as I have asked for it before.
You claim low static but where are your numbers and at what place are you taking them. Plus I must be missing them again on your data spread sheet.
Or are you still trying to pull the wool over my eyes again.
I am not that easy to fool.
You have attempted it before
Its called doing simple math.
Get off of your WFI monitoring stage.
All of the monitoring means nothing if your design and installation is just standard.
But hey at least it is standard I guess. We just dont see that kind of low end work around here for that kind of money spent on the system.
We actually have our design standards set no matter if it's a $3000, or $300,000 job.

Please seek out the following sources if you dont believe me
ASHRAE, AHRI, MANUAL J, MANUAL D , NCI, NEBB, NATE, RSES, IGSHPA
ETC
You get the point. Educate yourself
Hey if you put half the time in your design as you do your data you would actually be dangerous.
It's that simple.
Yeah please go to the following website for your evidence of our premium work and track record.
If you want references just come out and ask we would be happy to offer you as many as you would like.

www.charlottesvillehvac.com

Look under the ductwork tab to see actual install photos. Stop with your useless data info and repeating the same line looking for proof and just visit the site to understand with some common sense.
We can and are willing to help you so please remove your blinders. It's O.K to be taught new things as times change
Thanks

 

I was interested in this thread until about the second post when Geothermal Spirits started preaching from his never wrong, I set the standards soap box.... Since that 2nd post, this has been nothing but an attack on everyone else because only he knows best. I, as a consumer, would not use Charlottesville HVAC because the same attitude displayed in the Better Business Bureau complaint area is exactly the better-than-you attitude displayed through this entire thread. I have no clue if you are the owner or even the one who responded to the BBB complaint with the rambling, incoherent, passive-aggressive response to the customer's complaint, but this thread and others you have posted reflect poorly on your company as a whole. You may have knowledge but if nobody can tolerate your smugness, what is the point!?

Can this thread get back on track, I am actually trying to learn something here but all I can think of as I read through this is the South Park episode where all of the Prius drivers smelled their own farts because they were so much better than everyone else!

 

What is steady state? Utah? LOL.

 

Listen when you travel everyday visiting these job sites and see the horrible designs and installations. It is very concerning when we join a forum and we see the same designs here by professionals. It is a constant battle to overcome everyday. And yes we are very proud because we do not allow our standards to be changed for no one.
Even though it may seem as pompous attitude when it is merely just the correct methods that all HVAC contractors are supposed to design to.
I guess I am not the good ole boy here.
As far as the one complaint about our company on BBB in over 15 years in business and thousands of customers.

We are very sorry about that, because as you can look at our work you can see we have great eye for detail and we have a great reputation. But as much as we try we just can't be everything to everybody.
Again I am sorry if it sounds as if we are smuggish.

We are truly not at all.
We just call it as we see it.

We have done some incredible things in this Industry that's been accepted by professionals all over this country but when I get here it is like people are defending inferrior work and coming up with reasons of why.

Do you buy a new car from the manufacturer with a powertrain warranty on your motor and transmission?
Yes you do
When you take your car to the dealer to have the car serviced they decide to use fluids that are no recommended by the factory just because they have it in 55 gallon barrels that all the techs pump it in to their vehicles.

Well when the parts start failing prematurely and it is found by the factory that the correct fluids were not installed during the life of your car.

Now the factory claims they will not cover the expense because of the dealerships failure to follow manufacturers warranty policy. But the car is just out of warranty and the dealer says we used the correct fluids that we have been for 20 years even though specs have changed over the years for newer engines.

Wouldn't you fault the dealer not the manufacturer
Well this is no different.
Duct design is a true science and is very complicated. More so than any other part of all HVAC system designs.
So it is very upsetting to see guys defend and argue about unacceptable designs from according to the standards that we all are supposed to be designing to.
Our customers realize this and get the absolute best designed, engineered, installed systems with every detail done the correct way period. And that's what it's about.
So sorry to offend you or anyone here.

 

It seems to me you travel too much in the tasting room. Is English your first language?

 

Geothermal Spirits, you are talking 0.05 and 0.07 inches of H2O, but I thought all the specifications and suggested limits are 0.5 inches of water?

I am measuring the return (low pressure) within about an inch of the unit, basically one inch in front of the filter. For the supply (high pressure) it is being measured about 12 inches away from the unit as I wanted to get away from the bellows.

The contractor did put an elbow on the supply side, and it did greatly cut down the turbulence there, but it was not a smooth radius throat elbow, it has a square throat.

I don't have a flow meter, I'm just going off the target cfm from the fan controller which I can watch in real time. However, for the dp I'm using a true manometer, which is actually very accurate. At least the manometer is accurate, it is still dependent on the correct taps etc.

I gave you dimensions for the return, would it help to put a sketch together?

 

I'm assuming he was referring to the friction rate per 100' of effective duct length. General recommendations are to keep the friction rate to less than 0.1" wc /100' duct. When I designed my duct system I used 0.06" wc/100' equivalent duct length. I then plugged that number and the CFM needed for a room into a ductulator. As an example, I needed 85 cfm to a room. I used that flow rate and 0.06" wc friction rate to determine that I needed a 6" round metal duct for that room. For a trunk feeding two 6" duct branches I needed 8" round metal duct to maintain the same friction rate, and so on.

 

Actually you are correct but I didn't want to blow someone's mind. We actually design to a .08 on supply and .02-.03 on r.a. To maintain 1/2" w.c for pressure drop.
But I am down with that. To big a supply design can hurt you a little as far as psychometric inside the duct. But it also different if you are lining your duct.
Great input
I knew I would find a friend somewhere.

 

Dakotafig
Yes sir no problem. I have been swamped. Please give me a few days.

 

Dakotafig
The difference between a radius back ell with a square throat is tremendous when compared to a radius back ell with a radius throat.
Depending on the length of his throat when he designed the fitting.
The ell that your contractor installed has an EQLR of like 90' versus the same ell in radius throat of like 15' of EQLR.
What happens is with that square throat regardless if it is the supply or return duct. The air moving thru the duct hits the back side of the ell as that is the direction it is thrown inside the duct thus adding that much more restriction to move the units of air further downstream.
Once you take your dividers while designing the ell and just swing the throat of the ell, it then forces the air to move into the direction that you need it to go. With minimum resistance.
You see that's where most contractors just don't get it. They have been doing this ductwork for so long and they have moved air but really don't understand the static pressure design behind it.
Thus taking a major effect on the entire system efficiency and even more so the life of the system and a lot of repairs.
All I can tell you is I have traveled this entire country training HVAC contractors the importance of not only the correct size duct systems but the properly designed system is just as important.
We can count one hand as far as compressor failures in the last 15 years of being in business out of the thousands of systems installed when we install everything including the ductwork.
So yes it is one of the most important aspects of your system.
Please take another photo of your supply after the modification.
And a sketch would be great
Thanks and have a great day

 

Lots of words, not much beef. See, that is the difference between us here.
Data is evidence. I agree that it is simple math. If the data reveals that the design and installation results in great performance, wether a return boot is square or round, and that the turning vanes are key for equal air distribution through the coil, unless you have better data to the controversy, that data stands as evidence.
It strikes me that you have never questioned yourself, or your installs, or tried to improve your designs, despite your thousands of system installs you claim.

Look, I do not question that you built nice looking ductwork, but you have never shown any evidence of good performance, but instead call others work substandard, despite evidence to the contrary.

It appears to be beyond your imagination that others have actually done some research, and found that certain things increase cost to the customer, without adding performance, thus value.

You continue to make a lot of claims without providing any evidence for it.

 

doc
I do not want to fuel your fire.
Please read your first answer when you stated your testing showed your return shoe or boot that the air shoots down the fitting throat to the bottom without turning vanes.
But you then contradicted yourself later trying to prove my statement wrong by saying that return air doesn't pull down as it all pulls up top of the coil.
Which is it as you keep flopping back and forth?
The facts are that manual D is the standard you should be following and your obviously not.
Please investigate manual D before dragging me thru the mud.
It's all about proper fitting design which you obviously do not understand nor are you even trying.
But you can keep trying to make me look bad by asking for useless data.
It's not about me or how good a job looks. It's all about designing the least restrictive duct system from the beginning of the supply to the end of the return duct. It's called EQLR of each fitting.

Please understand the following. Supply and return plenum boxes are the most restrictive, following square back and throat fittings, then radius back with square throat, then if you modify your mitered back and throat fittings with turning vanes that is much better, but the absolute best designed duct fittings are all true radius back and throats with no need for turning vanes. And actually you get full coverage of air moving across the coil if it is the proper designed fitting.

Air delivery system standards are changing everyday along with equipment technology so if you are not willing to change with those standards then you are not providing the best that you can for your customers.

Not only are there standards for the design but then there is a whole other world of standards for actually designing the fittings themselves to be the least restrictive even with the true radius design. Such as transitions, reducing fittings, panned Ells, drop check Ells, square to rounds, vertical Ells, horizontal Ells, offsetting square to rounds etc.....
Have a great day.

 

Doc
I do apologize as the sub standard comment is in only to the reference that you and others should be designing to their air delivery systems to the standard manual D duct standards in your fittings and sizing.
As should every licensed mechanical contractor in this country.
So when you do not design your air delivery systems to those standards, it is truly sub standard work.
There is nothing else to call it.
I am not trying to sound mean.
So I think that's where you are confused.
I want to open your eyes to hopefully make your systems that much better and it is so easy.
Again manual D is the design standard and your smart enough to know what I am talking about.
You just want to argue no matter what.
I am actually trying to help this guy.
Have a great day.

 

Dakota
Please call me so that I can bypass the forum to hopefully guide in the right direction.

 

Thanks for pointing out the incorrectness in my first response, I have corrected that. The majority of the air stream hits the upper portion of the coil, not the lower one.

While achieving low restrictiveness in the airflow is desirable, there are many ways to achieve that.

Data on performance is not useless data, especially when it confirms that your's or our ductwork is performing accordingly. Air standards are truly changing, heat exchangers become larger in size and more efficient.

Do you actually have any evidence for your statements that turning vanes are not needed to ensure full coverage of air moving across the coil, other than just referring back to a manual D?
While you criticizes people who have done some investigations and provided data for indicating low flow restrictions, thus low energy consumption, in their designs you call that data useless and have not provided anything to the contrary.

 

yes sir my evidence is manual D and static pressure readings but not logged data