Climate Master Tranquility 30 TE064

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by xrbbaker, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    * I have the 5 ton unit. House is 2800 sq feet, but add in basement and maybe another 1000, so 3800.
    * Well is 440' w 20 gallon yield
    * I'm not an HVAC guy
    * I keep the temp set to 69
    * Delta T = 7
    * Open loop (well) system

    With these very cold days I keep getting lock out on Low LT1. I've made a few setting changes and it is making a difference.

    1) bumped up water pressure to 60 psi
    2) raised the temperature up to 50 to dump water from the well with 1 degree differential. (It was originally set to dump at 47. I kept moving it up as the system needs help recovering.)

    This is helping a great deal. It hasn't crapped out since I got up this morning (when it was on orange Emerg heat.) What seems to be happening is that when it's really cold, like 0-15, it has to run for longer stretches, which drops the well temp, which causes incoming water to be less warm. After sitting all night on emerg and then turning the furnace to Heat, the incoming temp this morning was around 52.8 so let's call that the normal well temp. After a cycle that sucks the heat out of the water, the incoming temp might get down to 48 or so. While furnace rests, the drain dump might only get it back up to 50. Then the next cycle drops it down to 47. While it rests the drain dump only gets it back up to 49, etc. Ultimately I get a fail, like the picture below.

    Are there any other settings that I could fool with, or should fool with that might help my situation? What is the purpose of the Delta T? Is that a setting that can be tweaked to help me from continually getting low Lt1s?

    I don't understand the valve's purpose really but I see a lot of folks talking about it. Mine seems to be in a range from 50-78%, so it does seem to be adjusting.

    -thank you

    upload_2014-1-23_17-4-9.png
     
  2. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    This morning the furnace was in LT1 lockout again. (At least the AUX heat was keeping us at 68.) After clearing the screen the heat started in normal mode. After a while I snapped this picture. At the time it was running in stage 2. Shortly thereafter it went to stage 1 then reached set point and turned off. The problem is that the water started at 52.8 and by the end of the first cycle it was down to 48. I might get a few cycles out of it but ultimately the too cold incoming water is going to cause the LT1 to trip. Thx
     

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  3. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    Well, I didn't get any help here, but in case somebody is reading this down the road...

    I changed the delta T value from 7 to 5. This seems to have made a great difference. This morning it was 7 degrees and I had no lockout! Here's a screen print of the stat with the delta T set at 5 and outdoor temp of 7 degrees:

    upload_2014-1-28_7-50-15.png

    Compare that to the original pic of lockout while at delta T=7 and 14 degrees. Seems like the key is the Delta.
     

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  4. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Apologize for not catching this sooner, us heating guys have had our hands full lately. Yes Delta T matters. Hopefully that will solve your problem. We have had a few board revisions as well.
     
  5. llaforest

    llaforest Member

    Hello xrbbaker

    I understand what you live, it really seems that the delta T has not linear effect on LT1. So even going from 5 to 7 will have a lot of effect. I my case my entering water is 46.8, I cannot go with more than 4F delta T...

    I espacially have problems when the machine starts because unlike you, my water is colder when the machine starts because the well is not close to the house, so water in the pipe is colde for 5 minutes when the machine start.

    What is your latitude? I am 45deg North.

    One detail though, in my System Status screen, I do not have the valve position. I would really like to see it there as well and can only see it in the manual override screen.
     
  6. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    This is really interesting. After turning the furnace to heat this Fall, I got the all too familiar LT1 Low temp condition. I had set the delta T back to the default 7 because I knew the incoming water is extremely warm. I got a lockout for low water temp!! See screen print. I think the moral of the story is, at least with my unit, the higher delta T sucks too much heat out of the water REGARDLESS OF THE INCOMING WATER TEMP. As the previous poster noted I think reducing delta T is not linear. I had flipped it over to not use Delta T, but I'm going to flip it back and reduce the delta to see what happens.
     

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  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You might get some ice formation on the inside of your heat exchanger. You cool down your water from 47F to 37F the surface of your heat exchanger must be much colder than 37F, and there is no antifreeze here. You have to try to stay above 40F for leaving water temperature.
     
  8. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    I think the pic I posted and the situation I was having must have been some kind of anomaly. Either that or just a little change in Delta T makes a HUGE difference. I went back to driven off of Delta T, but changed it to 5 instead of 7. Working like a charm. See pic. Here it is running nicely during stage 2. Looks sweet. I know I have to keep an eye on it as the well water temp lowers. Might have to drop Delta T even more, but for now it looks great.
     

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  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Changing your delta T from 7 to 5F increases your flow by almost 30%. can be the difference between ice formation or not! Especially at low entering water temperatures. Make sure you keep the leaving water temp above 40F!
     
  10. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    Thanks. I'll focus on that. I know in deepest winter the incoming water gets down into the upper 40s so that is something I'll have to keep a close eye on. thx!
     
  11. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    I can honestly say that I am sooooooo done with this ClimateMaster. It is such a cool idea. It just is too complicated and unreliable. I spend hours and hours trying to figure out what is going on next. I've had the professionals here DOZENS of times. I've had the factory rep here twice. How is a typical home owner supposed to deal with this? The latest issues continue to be Lt1 low temps causing lock out. My installation guys have told me to forget the delta T. It's just too unreliable. (Why did I pay for this system if it doesn't work?) I thought I had found the balance but they are right. The incoming water temp is now something like 53 degrees. I get a Lt1 low temp lock out. Huh? Looking at the fault page, the incoming water was 53.2 the leaving water was 40.4. Now if I have the delta T set at 6, which I do, doesn't that mean that the outgoing water should be around 47? Why is the system sucking so much heat out when the delta T has it limited to 6 degrees? Not surprisingly the LT1 temp gets down to 25.6 and then bam! Lockout. (see attachment)

    Today I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I watched while it was running and it showed the incoming water at 55.1 and the outgoing water at 57.9! Does that make any sense? How is that possible? Then to really top it off I watched the LT1 temp drop and drop and drop. You can see in this pic that it was down to -14.1!!! Wtf? (see attachment) This darned system is WWWAAAYYYY too complicated for it's level of unreliability. It's ok to be complex IF IT WORKS. How am I supposed to sell this house with this ridiculously unreliable, complex system? Bottom line: DO NOT BUY CLIMATEMASTER. It's a great idea that doesn't work.
     

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  12. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

  13. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    Thanks. Good information.

    Today's problem was that the contactor had welded itself in the open position. Compressor kept running regardless of signals being sent to it. Lt2 got down into the negatives. Iced up. Fortunately I was here and could hear it straining and turned the breakers off. What if I weren't here? What if I didn't recognize the sounds of the struggling system? Too darned complicated. My HVAC guy came out and fixed it. He agrees that the open loop well systems with the modulating valve is a bust. His company doesn't install the well systems any more. They only do closed loop systems with anti freeze in them. He says they work like a charm. Using the motorized system on anti freeze instead of the modulating valve system on the well water is apparently MUCH more reliable. I guess that's great for everybody other than me. I'm stuck with this crap system and spending 50 hours a year trouble shooting it. I've switched it over from Delta T to the Fixed valve model. My HVAC guy says that is much more reliable. I hope so.
     
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have been working on HVAC and refrigeration for about 35 years and have yet to see an electrical contractor, "weld itself open".
     
    arkie6 likes this.
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It appears that you did not have enough flow, the valve was probably reducing the flow too much, thus your coil was icing up. LT2 cannot godown that much just because the heat pump is running. It is an open system with unlimited amount of 53F water.

    There is nothing wrong with the Climatemaster or an open system, but the amount of valve opening must be set correctly, which appears was changed by you.

    Thermistor issue are common, but the change of the temp sensor is simple. You think your delta T is 5F, but in reality it can 15F. Make sure your sensor are calibrated and morning correctly.

    You don't need 50 PSI, that is a waste of energy, usually 20 psi are more than enough, but the valve has to let the water through. Worst case is the lower your delta T, and chances are that things are running fine.

    Now the last question: If you changed from the modulating to the fixed valve, how do you keep changing your delta T?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  16. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    As always the product gets the blame. I have several of these units on the ground and they are far from "bust". The "bust" is your contractor who appears to be ignorant or unwilling to help.
    In almost every case when we have trouble as you describe; the problem is water. I would try to bleed the well sooner (not let the temp drop as low) and see if that doesn't help.
    In only two cases have I found the modulating valve to be unusable. Both had water issues that made a return to a conventional solenoid necessary to avoid nuisance lockouts.
     
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The freeze detection sensor is a different one than the sensor for the leaving water.

    Again, winter or spring operation does not matter, since the incoming water temp does not change. Usually the actual water temp is a couple degrees lower than indicated by the LWT (leaving water temperature) sensor, since it is surface mounted on the pipe. So you read 40F, in realty it is 37-38F, meaning your delta T is more likely 15F, meaning you might have only 6-8 gpm flow. Meaning the surface of your heat exchanger might be way below freezing, causing ice formation. Do not trust he temp sensors to the fullest, nor trust your built in flow meter. Nothing wrong with the unit, just something you learn about setting them up after a while. Nothing wrong with the modulating valve either, it is just not set correctly. And of course, if you simply use an open/close valve, you would not have the issue to begin with. They are not more reliable, they simply bail out no evolved technicians or home owners who play around with their settings in the wrong way.

    But they also waste a lot of pumping.
     
  18. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with Doc. In the 2 cases where I bypassed the valve there was solid or semi solid particulate in the water provided so the purpose of a full open or close valve was to ensure a wide open passage to keep gunk from blocking flow. 5 tons for the size of home described suggests an unevolved installer.
     
  19. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member

    Ok Ok. Fumble fingers...
     
  20. xrbbaker

    xrbbaker Member


    *I'm not sure I understand your question. The system let's you set it up as either modulated valve, where one can set the Delta T and it adjusts the valve on it's own. Or one can set it up with a predetermined valve opening, depending on whether it's stage 1 or stage 2 (I think.) Since it appears that modulating valve doesn't react quickly enough, or properly enough to yield the desired Delta, I've changed the configuration over to the Fixed settings.
     

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