ClimaDry ClimateMaster not working.

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by geonumbed, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'm sorry Eric, I'm doing a poor job of illustrating this.

    In normal cooling we would simply add heat to the brine circulated from the loop field.
    In re-heat or dehumi mode, that brine is diverted first through a fan coil that is downstream of the cooling coil. Sooooo air passes through refrigeration coil cooled by the very water that then heats that air back up. Diverter maintains desired airtemp by shortcircuiting loop system or re-employing loop field.

    Because you are cooling the brine that regular cooling modes would return to the ground warmer, you are taxing the loop field less.

    Hope this helps.
     
  2. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    So, the answer appears to be: Yes, No, Maybe and Indeterminate Solution. The Indeterminate Solution being: If you don't need it (by installing something else) then it will work.

    No one even mentioned the fact that there is a sensor relay that faults the Tranquility furnace, rendering it useless, if the temperature is 70 degrees or lower. That seems like a clear sign that ClimaDry is not intended to be used in Heat Mode by design. But, the technical documentation and marketing brochures suggest otherwise. To me, that indicates that no one on this forum has actual experience with the ClimaDry option and ClimateMaster leaves their documentation in ambiguous and contradictory states.

    Here is a typical example:

    http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/97B0051N01.pdf

    says:

    "ClimaDry units must have minimum entering air temperature of 70°F"

    I don't see where it says it will fault the furnace, rendering it useless, if the temperature is below 70F.

    But, it also says this:

    "ClimaDry is especially useful in Northern Climates, where the heat pump may be oversized in the cooling mode to provide enough heating capacity."

    and this:

    "ClimaDry can operate in three modes; cooling, cooling with reheat, and heating."

    and this:

    http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/RP823.pdf

    says this:

    "The ClimaDry option uses a patented technology to dehumidify your entire house, automatically adjusting the air temperature to avoid overcooling or overheating, providing your family maximum comfort."

    So, what is it? Good for Northern climates as long as you don't use it below 70F ? Hah! What good is that? What is the difference between Northern and Southern (Equatorial) climates if it can't be used below 70F? "ClimaDry can operate in ... heating mode?" ... as long as the temperature is not below 70F? WTF is that? Do they mean it can operate in heating mode as long as you want to heat beyond 70F and do not have to heat below 70F? Are their customers cyborgs and aliens that need non-human heating requirements?

    Based on my ACTUAL use of ClimaDry and dealing with its idiosyncrasies this is what I have concluded at this time:

    To use ClimaDry first you have to disable it, heat up to 72 degrees, reenable it and then hope that the heat load does not exceed the reheat capability of the reheat coils because if that is not the case then you (a) fault the furnace or/and (b) encounter a control loop algorithm race condition (a bug in an embedded computer).

    I hardly call that "especially useful in Northern Climates", "automatically adjusting the air temperature" and "providing your family maximum comfort". I do call it: "A pain in the butt".

    Based upon what I know at the present time: Although the Tranquility is probably a typical geothermal heat pump system, it hardly merits pumped up marketing and a premium price and if I had to do it over, I would buy from a different vendor.
     
  3. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Geonumbed, did you have a designer/installer involved? If so what is their explanation for the high heating humidity? Why have they misapplied this product?
    Because you are criticising the product (vs design) I'm suspicious you designed this system and are trying to blame others for its shortcomings.

    Good technology is only good when utilized correctly.
    You should not need to dehumidify in a properly ventilated structure in heating season.

    If you want help solving your humidity problem then we need to go back to conventional troubleshooting.

    If you want to criticize us for not knowing the product, you are mistaken. De-humi is an independant function. As such it will dehumidify when ever you set it to de-humidify; just as the system will heat when set to heat or cool when set to cool.

    Does it work better in concert (switching back and forth between functions) with cooling? Of course; as you do not need the down-time between functions. If you do not permit sufficient downtime before heating, you will re-humidify.

    RE price: Most high end heat pumps cost about the same. A TT27 with Climadry costs more than systems without.
     
  4. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    Again, at this time I am only interested in this question: "Is the ClimaDry designed to provide both heat and dehumidification at the same time (albeit perhaps in sequential cycles)?" My question is purposely precise. If I wanted to ask a question about installation, or a general theoretical question, then I would have asked about that instead.

    I'm not blaming anyone or anything. I am trying to understand documentation (and lack thereof) v.s. factual product performance. There certainly appears to be a inconsistency between the two and that inconsistency seems to have resulted in the full spectrum of answers to the question. I do not think ClimateMaster has done a good job explaining the limitations of their product and I believe they have misdescribed it many times.
     
  5. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    NO

    No and again no.

    I hear Joe and I hear you.

    I may just give up design work if you thought that a heat pump would provide major dehumidification, and you will not share what you want.

    Be kind, rewind.

    Your comments are not very nice from a person asking for free how to.

    mark
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  6. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "Again, at this time I am only interested in this question: "Is the ClimaDry designed to provide both heat and dehumidification at the same time (albeit perhaps in sequential cycles)?""

    Oh only this question.
    Well then here is your answer: Climadry is a dehumidification feature on a heat pump. It can only dehumidify when called upon. It can't heat or cool.

    You may be interested to know (albeit you didn't ask):
    The heat pump itself may heat or cool when climadry is not running.

    A heat pump with Climadry may not perform any two functions simultaneously. It may not heat and dehumidify, cool and dehumidify, or heat and cool at the same time.

    It can do any or all three of the tasks in sequence........if designed (sized appropriately by the designer) for it.

    My point is not to pick on you but to try to educate you. By not understanding the distinctions I am making your chance of satisfaction with your equipment is nil.

    You have a very nice heat pump in your home that if employed properly can make you very comfortable with very little fuel consumption.......Once you solve your humidity problems.
     
  7. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    I stated: "albeit perhaps in sequential cycles"

    That says it all. I will restate the question so there can be no selecting of subsections of the question:

    "Can ClimaDry dehumidify in one cycle and then in the subsequent (next) cycle heat in heat mode and also do so by discharging the humidity into a drain pan without re-injecting condensed water from the coils into the air so that the net effect on two subsequent adjacent cycles is to dehumidify?"

    Although in theory, given the proper programming of the DXM board it might be able to do it, in practice and in actual observation, it can not.

    In addition, as shipped from the factory it can not dehumidify when the temperature is below 70F. In fact, the ClimaDry can not do anything below 70F as it faults without error code and renders the furnace useless.

    Again, factual information with actual observations. No theory or conjecture. Simply facts.
     
  8. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "I stated: "albeit perhaps in sequential cycles"

    I know and I resisted the urge to mention that "at the same time" and "in sequential cycles" was somewhat of an oxymoron.

    You are asking the same thing I have answered repeatedly.
    You sound like you are preparing for a law-suit.
    I don't sell Climatemaster any more, nor do I care if you are mad at them.
    I think however you are misdirecting your energies here.

    Climadry can absolutly dehumidify in the heating season if overall system size and design allows.

    You know your problem, you are turning the heat on too soon after the dehumi-cycle......so leave it off longer and condensate will drain (which is why you added the word adjacent in this question).

    Should winter dehumidification be necessary.....absolutely not.
    If you'd like to attack the actual problems in your home we are here for you.
    If you'd like to rephrase the same question over and over again, you have your answer already.....you'll need a different expert witness.....
     
  9. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    "You know your problem, you are turning the heat on too soon after the dehumi-cycle......so leave it off longer and condensate will drain (which is why you added the word adjacent in this question"

    I used the word "adjacent" because, in my observation over many cycles, the ClimateMaster control algorithm's effect is to turn on the heat immediately at the termination of a dehumidification cycle. It is the ClimateMaster programming logic that is at fault. In fact, if you read the ClimateMaster documentation carefully you will find out why the ClimateMaster unit chooses to do that, that is assuming that the documentation accurately reflects the programming criterion of the ClimateMaster.

    However, in one situation you are right: I overrode the programming logic of the ClimateMaster and implemented my own control algorithm and it worked just fine. It dehumidified, dumped water and then heated without a problem. But, expecting a homeowner to do that is pretty ridiculous and blaming the homeowner for not doing that is even worse.

    Again, that is factual information with actual observations. No theory or conjecture. Simply facts.
     
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Facts:
    I wouldn't expect a homeowner to be responsible for for maintaining his system if a competent designer/installer was employed.

    You can heat your home and dehumidify with the equipment available albeit not necessarily in the most efficient way.

    An HRV does not employ a compressor and might be a better (more efficient) fit.

    Blaming equipment for poor systen design is getting you no where.

    We could help if you would open your mind to other ideas.

    No conjecture there.....
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  11. Damien Sanchez

    Damien Sanchez New Member

    I have a geothermal system that we started running I n Feb of 2015, the system can't seem to register the humidity, our previous 30 year old system had no problems, we set the temp to 69, and humidity to 40, on humid days it will go up close to 70% in the house and the humidity is set to 45% I'm at a loss. It is cool but sticky, very frustrating. Any ideas on how to get the climate to work? My installer hasn't been much help.
     
  12. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The way to pull more humidity out is to slow down the blower, so the coil is colder and causes more condensate. Some units do this automatically for A/C operation.
     
  13. Damien Sanchez

    Damien Sanchez New Member

    So is that something the installer can adjust on the system?
     
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If the system is under warranty it should be a no brainier.
     
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Certainly
     

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