ClimaDry ClimateMaster not working.

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by geonumbed, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    This is spring time, cool and damp here. I have a ClimaDry and this is how it operates: Dehumidify down to 40% (the set point), then the heat turns on and humidity increases to 60%. After the heat cycle ClimaDry turns on and humidity decreases to 40%. Then the house is cool and the heat turns on and humidity increases to 60%. Repeats the whole day and the ClimateMaster Tranquility does not discharge any water.

    So, humidity condenses (and is trapped) on the coils and on subsequent heating the humidity vaporizes into the house. That repeats all day long, using energy but the net effect is to not reduce humidity.

    Any comments?
     
  2. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    By chance is your fan (system blower) set for "on" instead of "auto"?
     
  3. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    The fan was on "Auto".

    The problem is: The heat cycle kicks on right after a dehumidification cycle and when the heat is on then the fan must be on. The other problem is that the condensed water hangs in the coils/cooling fins for a long time. Add heat and the fan and you have a good humidifier after the dehumidification mode.

    Also, as you point out, if the fan is on "On" then the same problem happens even without a heat cycle after a dehumidification cycle. ClimateMaster should have overridden the fan On setting for about 1/2 an hour when a dehumidification mode was just on.
     
  4. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If thats your only problem with the Climadry you are lucky.
    I think we are looking at this incorrectly however. The Climadry is made to dehumidify, but homes in the heating cycle should not need dehumi.....if they are adequately ventilated.
    If you were to employ an HRV instead of dehumi during the heating system you might control humidity just fine.
     
  5. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I had a client that the climadry ran nonstop 24-7 and increased the load in cooling to a point that was dangerously close to loop failure based on ewt.:eek:
    Eric
     
  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have just started to see info on this product

    I am not a big fan of multitasking equipment. I find they do not do either job well. MHO.

    I would start looking for where the water is coming from. There may be a way to change how the machine cycles.

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  7. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'm with you Mark. Why do we have 60% humidity when heating? Poor ventilation perhaps?
     
  8. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    Being required to install a HRV is equivalent to saying that the ClimaDry can not dehumidify and heat at the same time (or can not cycle to dehumidify and then heat).

    Of course a ClimaDry (or anything) will be able to dehumidify and heat as long as it does not have to dehumidify and heat. Such a statement is insipid.

    The question still remains: Can the ClimaDry heat and dehumidify? What is causing the control instability in the ClimaDry in a situation where the environment needs to be heated and dehumidified?
     
  9. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I don't know the ins and outs of Climadry, other than reading here, over the years, that it may be problematic and poorly supported.

    Taking a few steps back, I figure it is a mecahanism designed to reduce a systems sensible heat ratio, that is, allow it to do more dehumidifying...essentially a reheat system?

    I'm not suprised to read that it has difficulty while in heating mode...is it even designed to operate in heating mode?

    Taking a few more steps back, I echo remarks by others above - if there is excess humidity while in heating mode, there is most likely a building science / assembly / ventilation problem for which HVAC is a bandaid, not a solution.

    If the root problem can't or won't be addressed, then look to an HRV or even a separate central dehumidifier. I'm normally opposed to central dehus since all my humidity problems occur in mild to warm weather, and dehus operate to add cooling load.

    Thinking a bit further out of the box, consider an air source heat pump water heater if viable for the space in question.
     
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You are misunderstanding the concepts here completely.
    Dehumi should not be required during heating season in a home that is properly ventilated.
    Climadry is not intended to replace ventilation. Doing so may threaten the health of the occupants.
    Climadry's stated usefulness is in heating dominated climates where heat pump is often oversized for cooling. If you want it to work with heating then system needs to be oversized for heating.

    Your system designer certainly should know all this.:confused:

    Could this heat and dehumidify at the same time....? well yeah depending on the envelope and the amount of droop you want to put up with. Design would be rather specific and wasteful in my mind......i.e. oversized heat pump for rapid recovery and extended downtimes. As you already recognize the coil needs to drain before heating or you recondense collected moisture so you simply need to wait longer between heat and dehumi cycles.

    I think you should spend more time studying the "insipid" results of inadequate ventilation in a home....and find out why the V in your HVAC is not delivering.....
    blaming the climadry for not keeping up is like blaming an overwelmed sponge instead of turning off the faucett.
     
  11. geonumbed

    geonumbed New Member

    The structure is ventilated enough and there is no health concern.

    To prevent arguing I am limiting my question only to the following:

    "Is the ClimaDry designed to provide both heat and dehumidification at the same time (albeit perhaps in sequential cycles)?"

    That is the only question I am interested in obtaining an answer to at this time.
     
  12. jrh

    jrh Member

    No
     
  13. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

  14. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    From the manual

    ClimaDry® Sequence Of Operation
    A heat pump equipped with ClimaDry® can operate
    in three modes; cooling, cooling with reheat, and
    heating.
     
  15. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    OK then we have to approach this as a typical repair. where do you live? what is the load? what are your airchanges? heat pump size? Who's plan was it to use it in this fashion?.......

    Can a Climadry heat and dehumidify.......absolutely. I already told you how (simply wasn't the way the manufacturer intended it to be used).
    Can you explain why you have adequate ventilation and 60% humidity while heating?
    I am not trying to argue.
    I'm trying to help.
    Would you like to fix the actual problem? Or affix blame?

    Your defensiveness leads me to suspect you had a hand in the ill-fated design....

    That doesn't mean we can't help you fix the problem, you simply need to help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  16. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    btw should have addressed this sooner. The way Climadry works should not increase cooling load.....straight cooling sends more heat to the ground loops.
    Climadry simply short circuits the leaving water and runs it through a hydronic fan coil first.....which actually cools the leaving water as it is downstream of the cooling fan coil.
    Cooling and heating the air simultaneously taxes ground loops less.

    Can you tell us more Eric (perhaps in a different thread) to get to the bottom of that scenario?
     
  17. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So if one is using Climadry in heating mode, the leaving water would be chilly, and thus ill-suited for use as a source of reheat...

    But wait, there's more...the concept of reheat is not relevant to heating mode since reheat is intended to restore sensible heat to air which has been cooled to below its dewpoint so as to shed water...

    So, in answer to OP's latest question...probably not.

    So if a structure is "properly ventilated" and exhibits excessive humidity along with heating load; the remaining question is: What is the source of excessive latent load? (moisture)

    Is this a grow house?
     
  18. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Joe,
    The client got hostile with the installer and the driller, and has not had the installer back to figure this out as of yet. I was guessing as to the culprit maybe be the climadry.

    If the house has a humidity issue, and it runs in Dewaynes #2, I took that to mean that it runs in cooling to eliminate humidity and then reheats the air for distribution as to not turn clients house into meat locker? Is this correct?

    Like so many geo's, this one went out of the gate a little off, and got the client all torqued up. First cooling season the unit ran in first stage non stop and did not satisfy cooling load due to a wiring issue keeping it out of second stage.

    That made me suspiscious about the rest of the install configuration, as well as the correctness of the load, and or lifestyle.

    Before the client went postal he said that it heated fine, but the house electric system is piggy backed off a poultry house meter, so we have no way to tell how much the stage 3 may or may not have been in operation.

    A puzzle untill client lets og installer back to diagnose.
    Eric
     
  19. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "So if one is using Climadry in heating mode, the leaving water would be chilly, and thus ill-suited for use as a source of reheat..."

    We should look at dehumidification as one of three functions (to avoid confusion) non-of which can be done simultaneously as dehumi cycle can't heat or cool, nor can you cool at the same time as heat etc.

    So you may dehumidify during heating season as long as adequate downtime exhists between dehumidification and heating. In cooling season one obviously doesn't need the huge time break between cooling and dehumi functions as cooling function won't re-vaporize moisture on the coil.

    So this design would likely work best in a cooling dominated climate where.......it is least likely needed.

    "If the house has a humidity issue, and it runs in Dewaynes #2, I took that to mean that it runs in cooling to eliminate humidity and then reheats the air for distribution as to not turn clients house into meat locker? Is this correct?"

    Heat pump heats EW to cool air so you have higher LWT. LW is circulated through a hydronic fan coil down stream of cool refrigerant coil. So air passes first through cool refrigerant coil, then through hydronic coil reheating the air but reducing LWT.

    Diverter valve lets new EW in or recirculates same water as indicated by temp sensors.

    So yes you run compressor longer, but because you are actually cooling leaving water it does not mean you are adding terrifically more heat to the ground.

    What's more in your AO unit should be sized for heating which I would expect most times is about a ton more than cooling load.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  20. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So by de humidifying when not cooling you are reducing temp of lwt? You spoke of a diverter valve, If the diverter valve is not working corectly and we are circulating the loop fluid while in cooling and de humid mode, would it cool the loop field or heat it up?
    Eric
     

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