We just had a home inspection yesterday of a house with a geothermal heat pump system. We live in western Montana, so it is predominantly a heating load (5700 ish HDD excluding summer). There is a 3.5 ton climate master installed. It is a 1150 sf upper floor, and the same size lower floor but it is a walkout basement and about half is exposed to the earth. We belileve it is insulated OK given the era, probably had 16" in the roof but it's settled, along with 2 x 6 wall construction. Double pane vinyl windows, in good shape, and not a ton of windows compared to the wall space. We had a geothermal contractor look at the system yesterday, and the unit is not only 20 years old there is a lot of rust on the ends of the coil. Adding to that, when he ran the system he got no pressure reading on the loop system, and we could hear what is likely air within the piping system (it was intermittant). So he's given me a budget number for replacement of the entire system, assuming right now that the loop is failed. Hopefully the seller moves quickly and gets the system purged and tested and we can eliminate the loop as a problem, however I think this is unlikely to happen in the needed timeframe. Even the HP replacement estimate is $14K, that seems really really high. So I'm wondering if I'm nuts to buy this house, if we get them to pay to replace/repair everything? These systems have such a bad rap for difficult operation, maintenance, and just really not working well (probably sizing) that I'm really leery of it. Why wouldn't I just put in a propane tank and furnace? If the heating costs $1000 per year, even if we save half of that it would take 20 years to pay back assume a propane system would cost $10K. Ugh, I love the house, but want to run away from this system! Right now in heating the electric kicks on right away, supporting the lack of operation of the loop. We're on a really really tight deadline on this, can anyone give me any words of wisdom?
Geothermal is a choice. It is not a perfect fit for all situations. I think the real dilema here is that you are potentially buying a house without a functioning hvac system. That needs to be addressed prior to purchase. How you and the seller work it out, or how you spend the moneies allowed you is where the choices start. Hope this helps Eric
big jump Big jump going from air in loop to a full system replacement. Can't help you with the rush except to say there is too much guessing right now.
The jump to full replacement is just how these things work with real estate transactions. It would be basically an agreement by the current owner that it may need to be replaced, and that they would pay for it if so. Not enough time to hammer that out so it goes into escrow. If not needed, or the estimate was high, they get the balance of the funds. So we had another contractor out there today, he was a lot less concerned. He confirmed that there is at least air the geo loop, which he believes is a leak, but not a bad one. One of the loop lines to the heat pump was exhibiting some compression, which he said is a sign of a leak, air in the line, and the circ pump pulling a bit of a vacuum. He says that all the loops leak, and that he recommends a reservoir system that basically is an autofill for the loop, just add more periodically to main sure it doesn't run dry. So, that's all fine and dandy, but I thought these loops were supposed to be bombproof? Shouldn't I have someone fill and test it, to confirm it is indeed a small leak? Even so, is a small leak acceptable, and can I reasonably expect it to not get worse? He agreed that 20 years is a common time for these to start failing but they often last much longer. He didn't think rust on the coil was bad. Which one do I believe? He also told me that the electric will ALWAYS kick on if you move the tstat more than 2 degrees. Well then we can't do night setback, which we do for sleeping comfort. Is this true? Yukko. Thoughts? Thank you so much.
Where to start, I think someone should add water to the loops and wait to fix the system 'til it really breaks. Which contractor do you believe? Contractor #2 said everything I was thinking (except for adding the resevoir). Rust on a 20 year old pc of metal that collects condensation (really isn't worthy of concern.) That the system is 20 suggests it is near it's life expectancy and worth a seller's concession. 5Kish. But honestly you are predisposed to changing to propane ("These systems have such a bad rap for difficult operation, maintenance, and just really not working well (probably sizing) that I'm really leery of it." and "Yukko"). So why not get the advice of propane advocates. You convey anxiety based on a real-estate deadline (always flexible btw). But in your haste have accepted ignorance. Then brought it here to spout cliches favored by geotaganists (while asking the advice of pro geo folks). If you really wanted to educate yourself on the system, you would go to the testimonials in these forums and see how many happy owners there are. Then get current owner's electric bills so you can see what it cost to heat with geo and if you get us a price per kwh we can convert that to cost to heat with propane for you. Loops are often connected to heat pump with rubber hoses and clamps they also have leak points around valves and pumps. Bomb proof? No but pretty stable. Most leaks are so slight they don't puddle, but after 20 years.......... BTW how many 20 year old super high efficiency propane furnaces did you see while house hunting? ...........things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm Good Luck. j
The current owner's electric bills would reflect either or both of: the system's present tendency to jump into aux mode since the compressor is interlocked by no water flow since the loop(s) have air The current owner's having not lived in the place for 2+ years, hence their desire to sell it. Geo should be a really good choice to heat a home in Montana, particularly in a rural location where it costs a heckuva lot less to send 1 btu for every 4 you need down wire running along the side of the road than to send 5 btus for every 4 you need rolling down that same long road in the form of a truck hauling propane. Propane is great stuff for two very important tasks: 1) Grilling meat 2) operating a standby genny so my geo heat pump and about a hundred other loads stay up and running for minutes, hours, days, or weeks when power goes out owing to anything from a road wreck involving a utility pole, electrical storm, or hurricane landfall.
I moved down here to avoid the strange northern phenomenon of ice occurring in the wild We prefer ice to exist only in captivity, that is, in freezers and drinks. Anywhere else, the stuff is a major nuisance. Who knows, maybe with climate change MT will experience hurricanes.
Nothing healthier than a little free range ice......and you don't have to wear that SPF180 all the time
We haven't seen free range ice since 1989, but, conditions permitting, I let a little out of my corral
I assure you that unless you are getting propane for $2.00 per gallon it will cost you much more than that per year to heat the house. And when the price of propane doubles like it has a tendency to do you will be wishing that you had the geothermal system.
Yep, they love it! We get so little freezing weather that I pay careful attention to identify potentially cold nights and gear up the snowgun. I throttle output from the open loop heat pump to produce 40*F water from it, store 1000+ gallons of it in a tarped dump trailer, and feed it to the snowgun which works off a continuously operating 5 Hp 80 gallon air compressor all night. I'm generally up until 2-3 AM those nights, and seem to need quite a bit of beer to insulate myself from the unaccustomed cold, so results tend to vary...
You guys are funny! We love our free range ice as we domesticate it and slide down it on sticks, and then as it melts float down it on big rubber contraptions. Free range ice is "water in the bank" for summer fun too. We're buying the house and I'm going to just post in the other thread I started, more focused on troubleshooting the geo loop. http://www.geoexchange.org/forum/ve...leaky-closed-horizontal-loop-2.html#post42987
exchange Curt, maybe we should do a house exchange? We'll leave you a house stocked with skiis, snowboards and beer and you can reciprocate with wake boards, sunblock, and margaritas.
exchange Curt, maybe we should do a house exchange? We'll leave you a house stocked with skiis, snowboards and beer and you can reciprocate with wake boards, sunblock, and margaritas.
