Best type of horizontal loop to install

I am glad that it is working fine for you in Indiana. I don't see much difference in the time it takes. 6 tons per day is a good pace, something we get with the slinkies as well.

So you are putting 2 pipes, 2' apart, at 6ft? And the 2 more at 5', and 2 more at 4', for 6 pipes total? And that trench then is 300 ft long?

 

6-pipes trench 5' to 6' deep. (3) on the bottom and (2) stapled up on one side of the trench and (1) on the other We have a lot pf pictures up on our facebook page http://www.facebook.com/IndianaGeothermal?ref=hl#!/IndianaGeothermal

 

Nice work.

I might worry about loop field depletion with the spacing that tight.

Mark

 

Lol. Right I'm thinking if that were the case I would've experienced that problem by now i put in thousands of these loops I've been doing it since 1984. I have done 400 ton horizontal loop fields just like this. Oh and by the way a slinky has tighter spacing than a 6-pipe

 

Point well taken. I hate getting in and out of a trench and with my luck the tube on the sides would fall to the bottom when back-filling.

Mark

 

With thousands of these loops, do you have annual performance data in a couple of them...?

Also 2 pipes are at 5ft? 1 pipe is at 4 ft? You will see a rapid performance drop. Plus if your guys are in a 6 ft trench and have to work on the bottom of it, don't let OSHA see this. And yes, I see the likelihood of the pipes getting pushed further together after backfilling.

 

Interesting comment. You are by definition running 6'/foot in your "narrower" trench (based on your description). Our slinkies are a little less than 6'/foot in a 3' wide trench. The slinky in this case should outperform the 6 pipe in damp or dry soil.

I hire out excavation and really don't care what my installer uses as long as it's enough. Nor should anyone. Most folks have a practiced way of doing things that they prefer. Sometimes "best" simply means "best for you".

 

did I say best? I think I said that a slinky was not easier. The best loop is the one that is right for the job. That's why we do all kinds of loops including the slinky once in a while. I don't think I claimed the 6-pipe was "best"

 

any time we are in a trench deeper than 5' the trench is cut back. But I'm sure you already knew that. We do most of our loops at a trench bottom of 5 feet for that reason.

 

Sure I knew that. Just did not see cut backs on your pictures, and I could not imagine that the shallowest pipe was at 3' when they are 1' apart. You have to make sure that the shallowest pipes does not get chilled down by the ambient temperature. It kind of beats the purpose.....
Again, with thousands of loops installed like that, do you have performance data on 1 or 2 of them over the season?

 

igshpa has all the data you need. Just run it on your design program. I look at mine all the time. It performed just as modeled. As far as the 3' remark, lol. You must not understand how these work. Just how cold do you think it gets at 3' deep in Indiana.

 

Forgive me sometimes "easier" is only "easier" for you. The title of the thread is "best type horizontal loop" you have nicely illustrated how far afield we are getting.
You may have thousands of loops and you blissfully state you don't need to monitor them due to computer modeling. In a variety of ways the pros on this site monitor their systems remotely. Doc and Dewayne by WEL, I monitor by ecobee so we are not taking a model's word for it. You make a lot of assumptions and support it with little.

In the computer modeling you mentioned did you happen to notice that slinkies often need less feet of trench than 6 pipe. If I had a nickle for everytime our trenches in the sand and gravel pile to the north of you stayed as stable as the pretty ones in your pictures, I'd have enough to buy a 1/2 cup of coffee.

i.e. Lest we forget: "Oh and by the way a slinky has tighter spacing than a 6-pipe ". You glossed over my question. If you have 6 feet of pipe per foot of 2 foot trench and I have 6 feet of pipe in a 3 foot trench how do I have "tighter spacing".

 

So you think you need to re-invent the wheel and IGSHPA has waisted their time. I support it with $6M in loop sales each year and no unhappy customers or warranty problems. LOL And yes, You do have tighter spacing. The six pipe is spread out on 3 different levels in the trench. But what you are missing is that all loops perform the same. The unit will not know what kind of loop it is hooked to if the loop is designed properly. One loop is not "better" than another. A slinky will deliver the same water temperature as a 6-pipe or a 2 pipe or what ever. The difference is what is the best fit for the job. My comment is simply that a slinky in most cases (if ever) is not easier to install. I would likely do slinkies for safety reasons if the trench had to be 8' deep. It is our experience that the excavation and the installation is the easiest in a 6-pipe. For a 2' bucket you only need a small excavator that you can pull behind a 1 ton truck. (inexpensive excavator and a inexpensive truck) Over all a 6-pipe has less excavation. You only need (2) guys on the job. One to run the excavator and one to roll out the pipe while the trench is being dug. The more we can keep our cost down the more we can make and save the home owner. We are all in this for the money. However, I guess I could see why you would need to monitor your DIY guys. Who knows what they will do.

 

Yes your multi pipes are on different levels, meaning a shallower average depth hence the lower capacity. While IGSHPA wasn't wasting their time they recognized this and suggested longer trenches for six pipe.
Amongst the points you are missing as you offer your expertise to people around the country is that you have nice stable soil in the absence of which six pipe is seldom easier.
Most of the DIY guys are trying to save money. Few spend the money on monitoring. I monitor my turn-key systems for optimum performance you apparently monitor complaints and assume good performance if you don't get any.

I learned years ago on these forums that different geography has different challanges and your or my assertions will be specific to our AO. I also have learned that while you will seldom fail by following IGSHPA guidelines, you will seldom optimize performance. Nor is it doomsday if you don't follow all of their suggestions.

 

Who are you?

Why are you?

I will drive over and look at any job you have installed just to stop the nonsense.

You have been here since 2008 and have just 28 +/- posts, and know all of it.

Thousands of anything does not bode well here. Show me the invoices.

Mark

BTW: Feel free to come after me. I do what I say and say what I do.

 

If I understand you correctly you're asking for a fight that's very professional. Lol You really do crack me up. You think you're so right about everything. Ha ha

 

I am not looking for a fight.

I am looking for you to prove what you say.

I do have an EPA refrigerant card. Do you?

Prove some of the thousands of jobs you have done with a few EWT and LWTs so we can see how great you are and change our ways to your thinking.

My wife thinks I am picking on you so I will stop for now here.

Mark

 

Yes I do. I have had a CFC card since 1996. That the only credentialed You have ?
And there you go again I never said a 6-pipe is better than any other loop. I in our experience They were the easiest to install. I can design for almost any temperature I want. You are the one with some kind of superiority complex. Lol.

 

OK.

Let us try this again.

Can you provide numbers for your systems?????????

Mark