annoying light flicker when heat pump starts up

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by eisensms, Oct 13, 2009.

  1. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    This I gotta see

    Keep me posted.

    I like learning new stuff.

    Single phase vs. three phase motors are completely different. Then go off to DC for a real mind bending thrill.

    Even living on grid with First Energy, I do not have a generator. If they really fail I have homeowners insurance, and send the savings on taking Stephanie out to diner.
  2. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I just don't like being uncomfortable or having to leave my hard-earned home if a hurricane tears up half the powerlines.

    Gabby - funny you mention workarounds for operating 3 phase motors using single phase service. One of the local community college AC instrctors, an old-timer, provided a sketch and explanation of a circuit wherein a 3 phase motor can make 85% of its design power via judicious arrangement of capacitor, etc. Seems a friend of his had obtained a multi-thousand dollar piece of surplus woodworking equipment only to learn it had a 3 phase motor
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I forgot

    about hurricanes.
  4. mseifert

    mseifert Member

    I contacted WaterFurnace. They would not give out any info beyond what is available at the link we've already seen. Their response was as follows (note: her response was the same even before I mentioned that I had a ClimateMaster).

    Perhaps someone who is in the industry (or even a Waterfurnace dealer) will have better luck than I.
  5. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You shouldn't have mentioned installing their product with a competitor's product. This will put them on the defensive.
    Let me see what I can find out trying a different venue.
  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I think not,

    as I have tried to work with, through and around Water Furnace. They are in the make money marketing business. To become a dealer I would need to pay them to take a course I can teach. At big bucks. Away from home. I could get a deal from their local no-tell motel and eat at Mikey D's.

    I will stay a small Mom and Pop shop that works the entire USA, Except Utah and Michigan.

    The double Es will tell you we have moving electrons down to a science. With out them we would not have beer. I am sure that we will have ECMs driving compressors sooner than later, so intelistart's undocumented days are numbered.
  7. teetech

    teetech Member Forum Leader


    What information are you looking for? No manufacturer is going turn over their engineering test data, that is considered proprietary information.

    The Intellistart is a branded soft start device marketed by Waterfurnace, but it is used to start the same compressor that's in your unit which is made by Copeland. (Scroll)

    You don't have to be a Waterfurnace dealer to buy parts, but you do have to be a licensed HVAC contractor and have a company credit card to purchase.

    One other note: They will ask for a model and serial number also, and they don't sell Climatemaster parts. :idea:

    Who isn't these days.
  8. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    ......I see no new laws of

    thermal dynamics or electron properties that this savior addresses. I could be wrong, as I have been before, and will be again.

  9. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The information is simplistic at best and should be part of the advertising for the product line. If I wanted to sell you a turbocharger for your 426 Hemi, would you be satisfied with a generic answer ---guaranteed to make your tires spin, or would you want something more substantiated like adds 200 HP to the engine.

    A simple nominal starting current for Envision 030 of 33 amps is all that is needed....something they stand behind, not some generic statement of 10:1 reduction in flicker, 30% reduction in LRA, or a three fold decrease in starting current. They all can't be correct but are sited by brochure as well as internet sites.
  10. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Annoying light flicker when heat pump starts up,

    COULD BE THE SIGN OF TOO MUCH...................

    or old age.

    talk to your Doctor and see if its lights for you.
  11. mseifert

    mseifert Member

    Yes, I wanted to kick myself after doing so. But she had already refused to send anything already and I was grabbing at straws...

    If I install this with my Climate Master, I want more than marketing hype that "it works". Most any technical product that makes claims has something to back it up.
  12. teetech

    teetech Member Forum Leader

    Re: Simply put

    If you don't buy the marketing-don't buy the product.

    Is Climatemaster offering anything to solve your problem? After all it's their equipment.
  13. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'm waiting for a reply from Eden Energy Equipment, one of the top five largest suppliers of vänEE equipment in all of Canada, and a WaterFurnace distributor in North America, as to the design criteria for different model Waterfurnace units' starting current, in order to size a standby generator.

    I also criticized their lack of definitive numbers and the use of obscure claims that contradict brochure claims. A 30% reduction in LRA is not the same as a three fold reduction in starting current. If 99 amps was the LRA, a 30% reduction is approximately 66 amps starting current. A three fold reduction in LRA is approximately 33 amps.
    There are some compressors this can not be used.

    NOTE: IntelliStart cannot be used with units that have Bristol TS and Copeland CT Series 2 speed compressors.
  14. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Re: Simply put

    I seriously doubt ClimatMaster has a product out, since WaterFurnace just introduced the Intellistart in May, 2009.

    The concept is not new even if availability may seem to be limited to one supplier. I have a couple of inquiries out to companies that do 3 phase systems to see if they do single phase systems, and at what price.

    There must be a reason that Bristol, TS, and Copeland CT Series 2 speed compressors are excluded. I wonder if it is because the connection points for this field add-on are not available, they are internal.
  15. teetech

    teetech Member Forum Leader

    It is because they already have a relay and start capacitor in the circuit, scrolls do not. The Intellistart was not designed to replace an existing relay and start capacitor.

    Of course they had their own set of problems, but dimming lights was rarely one of them. The wiring on the CT 2 speed was a real pistol and very unforgiving of any weak connections or components. The TS simply changed directions for high and low speed, but it had trouble stating even with a relay and start capacitor. If Bristol would have beefed up the windings in the TS it would have been a good compressor, 50% capacity in low speed was a useful feature for both compressors. The major problem with both the CT & TS is that they had to stop and restart when "shifting" from low to high speed and vice versa. Too many starts is hard on any compressor.
    That is also why they required the relay and start capacitor.
  16. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That's interesting and something to keep in mind when going to a competitor, or ordering a particular model of WaterFurnace. We will see how receptive they are with a generator question. I hold little confidence they will be helpful, that is out of character for that organization. Fortunately, some of their dealers and distributors show a different face, and try to be as accommodating as they can, which is more important to a customer than the manufacturing company.
  17. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Re: Intellistart WaterFurnace Specs.

    I did three models, a 3 ton, a five ton, and a 6 ton. All are dual capacity scroll compressors.
    These are all Waterfurnace models, pay particular attention to the type of Compressor used in the model and make sure if you go to a different brand that you have access to the points needed to connect the Intellistart.

    Wiring diagram--Google "WaterFurnace Intellistart"
    Download the Installation pdf file.

    Model NDO-038-RLA=16.6 amps, LRA=82 amps Intellistart LRA= 29.0 amps

    Model NDO-064--RLA=25.6 amps, LRA = 118.0 amps Intell LRA = 41 amps

    Model NDO-072---RLA = 27.2 amps, LRA= 150 amps, Intell RLA = 53 amps

    I will have quotes from a different manufacturer in about a week.
  18. eisensms

    eisensms Member

    Man, who started this long-winded thread?

    My Intellistart costs me $400, and did the trick!
  19. teetech

    teetech Member Forum Leader

    That's interesting, care to elaborate on the "trick"
    Not interested in the $400 part of it, just your issues.
    That's why the thread got started.
  20. eisensms

    eisensms Member

    I started the thread, because I had an annoying light flicker when my heat pump kicked in. After spending $400, I no longer have the light flicker ... just a thinner wallet. ;)

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