Am I expecting too much from my GEO?

We live in southeast MI. Our house has 2 forced air units: a 4 ton unit for the basement and main floor (2400 sq. ft. but basement is virtually unconditioned) and a 3 ton unit for the 2nd and 3rd floors (1900 sq. ft.). The units are totally independent with 3/4" x 700' loops per ton. I was very impressed with the cooling application this past summer although cooling is not much of an issue here. All seemed good with heating too especially with the smaller unit keeping the upper 2 floors toasty warm, which I just figured was due to the warm air from downstairs helping. But..... we have been having single digit temps. lately and we have had to run space heaters on the main floor because the GEO just can't keep up. The house was built in the 1997 with 6" well insulated walls and double glassed windows. Should this system be able to keep up and something is wrong with it or is this expected with temps. this low? Could the basement being so cold possibly be the problem or should it be able to overcome the ambient temperature? I just finished insulating the supply trunk with no noticeable improvement and am now going to insulate the return.
Any help would be much appreciated because now my 85 year old mother-in-law is going to be living with us and I need to figure something out quickly.

Doug

 

If your pumping warm air into a unconditioned basement to heat its basically lost heat. Its sucked right up by the concrete walls.

 

Do you know what the original heat load calculations are for the house? Do you have auxiliary heat on your geos? I'm in Mid MI and without some other circumstance, 7 tons plus auxiliary should get the job done.

 

I don't have the load calculations. There is no auxiliary heat on the units which may have to be addressed. The reason I am wondering if there is a problem with the downstairs 4 ton unit is that, since I have shut everything off to the basement, really it is only heating the 1200 sq. ft. main floor while the 3 ton upstairs is having no problem with heating 1900 sq. ft.

 

You are never truly free of load in a zone. A cold basement often costs almost as many btu's as heating the space. Further you need 1600 CFM(ish) for your 4 ton geo. If you close off all the basement registers do you still have adequate ductage?
No auxiliary/emergency heat suggests an uninformed installer.

 

I will open up the registers and see if more air flow helps? It would be nice to actually use the basement for more than a cellar this time of year. The ducting in the house was designed for gas fired furnaces and the installer was an older guy that has passed on. I met him years ago and he was a really nice guy but not high tech. There was no register in the kitchen and when I wondered about it he said that we should get enough heat from the oven and stove. It's possible no calculations were ever done, but it was just an old school "rule of thumb" installation.
So are you saying that I should put in aux. heat or expect to supplement when we have these cold temps.?

 

Duglin2; my WF is like 4ton for 2000sq ft. Its 19 years old and has been super, but in the first 3-4 winters here in upstate NY I found that at night it was running at max and the Aux heat light was on/off occasionally. After some thought I emailed WF who then had the local regional rep email me. Later that month he stopped at my office as he was passing thur the area and after looking at the unit realized that one "dip" switch on the computer board was not set to Stage 2 recovery. One little switch made the system work perfect and I never saw the Aux light on again. He said that stage one recovery gets like 65% of the heat but that stage 2 gets like 85% or something like this. Maybe yours is only in stage 1. Hope this helps, bob

 

Oh boy. Did old rule of thumb guy install the geos? I have twice as many questions now but some entering and leaving water and air temps.

 

Thanks Bob. I will check with tech. support on that. I hope it is something simple like that.

 

No. He retired about 20 years ago.
I don't have a real good way to measure in and out air temps. but I checked temps. at closest registers: upstairs is 85 and downstairs 68.5
Water temps. are: upstairs entering 32.9, leaving 30.3 and downstairs entering 31.8, leaving 28.2

 

Should there be an audible difference when the compressor goes into 2nd stage? The fan speed goes up but the compressor sounds the same.

 

Ok, Duglin I'm trying to establish when and who installed the geo and how it was designed. So far you've only discussed who didn't do it. One can get temps with an inexpensive meat thermometer.
So far you've offered little that will help us help you.
It's possible you need auxiliary heat for odd weather events. It's possible your system is sized poorly for the load and/or the duct system......it's likely that a designer who employs no auxiliary heat is not very knowledgeable in modern design.

Yes compressor noise changes when changing stage.

 

What Joe said.

Mark

 

At least get entering air temps from a return air register to give us a little intel. Sounds like downstairs unit may not be running at all. Water temp differences are low but it maybe how you measured them.

 

The geo system is a diy retrofit installed 3 years ago to an original propane system.
I got a Cooper probe thermometer and took readings this morning after last night's outside temp. of -14 here. Upstairs unit: EWT - 32.5, LWT - 26.7, EAT - 68.9, LAT - 80.7. Downstairs with space heaters running: EWT - 31.8, LWT - 28.5, EAT - 54.3, LAT - 67.2. It appears downstairs compressor may not be going into second stage.

 

Ok. What brand? It is clear downstairs unit is under performing. I have lots of design questions but they'll wait as current problem is not design (knowing now that you've had system for years rules out some things as well).
you are likely in our service area but let's Se if we can help remotely.
Easy way to see if Y 2 is called on is to put a jumper between Y 1 & Y 2 then check discharge temp. How is the filter?

 

Both units are Daikin McQuay.
Did you mean W1 and W2? It appears that second stage is being called for because the fan speed increases. No audible change in compressor or air temps though.
Support tech. thought that I am probably low on refrigerant.
Filter is good.

 

Ah you bought the equipment from the folks in KY. Dunno the McQuay's in particular (in fact, none of the pros here deal with them), but generally W's are for auxiliary heat and Y's are for compressor. Have you no Y terminals? Looking back, upstairs unit is underperforming as well.

There is much we don't know about the system and you don't know what to tell us. Let's try pictures of both units installed and a circuit board. Perhaps if you shared a model number we could look up some of the specs.

where in MI are you? (it might be quicker to stop by than trouble shoot this remotely).....

 

We are in Ypsilanti Township; almost at the intersection of 23 and 94. I will give you a call if we are in your area. It will be nice if it is something simple like a low charge of refrigerant (although I suppose that may indicate something more serious). We are getting by with the space heaters now and the warmer temps we had last week were nice.

 

Yes we can help you. What are the warranties from the vendor? See if they give you a labor allowance etc.