# Ontario 5 ton Geo running 24/7

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Maurice Sabourin, Oct 21, 2015.

1. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

I agree, get your refrigerant level tested and bumped up if needed, everything is is down the road from there.

2. ### geoxneActive MemberForum Leader

Component head is added up in a series circuit, GPM remains the same.

Theoretical Conditions:
Only R-65 unit and one flowcenter running
No correction factors applied (pump head is fixed by pump curve, only GPM will change with fluid correction factors)
11 GPM pure water
FT/HD ONE HyperLoop = (0.0727 x 11gpm - 0.0014) x 2.31 = 1.84 FT/HD
FT/HD FOUR HyperLoop in Series = 1.84 +1.84 +1.84 + 1.84 = 7.36 FT/HD at 11 GPM

Doc
If I am doing this wrong please let me know what and where I went wrong.

Now we can take 11 GPM / 1.2 Correction Factor = 9.17 GPM estimated flow with antifreeze.

3. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

Keep in mind, the pressure drop for Hyperloop is specified at 80F water, Maurice's water is at 35F. Water is significantly more dense at 35F, thus pressure drop is higher and actual flow is lower.
This is where the insanity check comes in. (2) 26-116 make about 60 ft/hd at 10.0 gpm, so if he has around 10 gpm flow, the total system must have about 60ft/hd pressure drop. Assuming that both pumps are running, something is off in your calcs.

4. ### geoxneActive MemberForum Leader

The correction factor for temperature difference would around 10%. My calcs are 100% off. So my assumption that only one pump is operating.

5. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

Keep in mind that the impact on temperature on the tenacity for glycol is much different than for water.

6. ### geoxneActive MemberForum Leader

Yes. My point is with a fixed speed circulator the head (work imposed on the circuit) stays the SAME. The actual flow in GPM will change depending on the properties of the fluid.

7. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

It now gets complex, since the even the rpms of the circulator decreases due to higher viscosity.....Keep in mind that even the temperature correction multiplier alone is not linear (see lower graph for attachment for 30%, I could not find one for 15%).

So you have 2 major factors here, since glycol is like syrup which gets really tenacious, and even more when cold:
1) The fact that the temp is 32F and not 80F as rated in the hyper loop spec
2) The fact that it has glycol in there and not water.

So publishing pressure drop data at 80F water for a pond loop (hyper loop) is misleading at least for heat dominated climate containing antifreeze.

Indeed, the constant speed pump will have a relative constant pressure at 32F with 15% glycol in there, but catching the effect of temperature and glycol is the tough task, since little data is published on the Hyperloops. Thus the flow will adjust itself to whatever flow rate is at the corresponding system pressure drop.

So here would be my run with 15% PG antifreeze at 32F and 9.3 gpm flow.

07.0 Heatpump Ft/Hd corrected for antifreeze
02.4 Unit S&R Ft/Hd 40ft 1" HDPE
06.4 Inside house S&R Ft/Hd 80ft 1.25" HDPE with 32 elbows
23.9 ft/hd of 640' header pipe with 15% glycol at 32F
11.4 ft/hd for 4 hyperloops in series 1 1/4" HDPE, adjusted 18% for temperature, adjusted 20% for PG (very conservative)
1.0 Valves

50.2 ft/hd total

So we are already way beyond what a single 26-116 can do. (30ft/hd)

Thus both pumps must be on, and we have another 10ft/hd somewhere in the system, either in the header system between the hyper loops, or we adjusted to conservatively for the hyper loops.

The killer is clearly the 1.25 header pipe being 320' each way, followed by the hyper loop in series, and the 32 elbows only (compared to 8 of them) only add 3 ft/hd.

Using a 2" pipe for the header pipe to the pond would cut out almost 20 ft/hd.

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8. ### geoxneActive MemberForum Leader

Doc
I will concede to your calculations. They are more consistent with a 19 psid across the flow center.

9. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

Hi Doc.
I am not sure the actual Hyper loop is 1 1/4 HDPE, I believe it was 3/4" But my memory is not very good.
I am pretty sure it was not the same size as the pipes going into the house. I may be wrong... I hope i am wrong...

Now that the bridges between the installer and I have been burned, it will be hard to get that information out of him.

10. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

UPDATE!!!

The owner of the installation company as cut me off, he will no longer respond to my calls for service.
He blames me for not insulating the house, and that the house leaks too much air, and that the units are running overtime. I added R58.8 insulation in the attic a couple of month after the installation. The unit ran normally for the first 2 winters.

He also said he would recommend to Maritime Geothermal not to honor the warranty on the units.
I have contacted Maritime Geothermal, they have sent me the name of another company to come and look at it.
You can be sure the I will talk to the guy and find out if he knows what he is talking about BEFORE i pay for a service call.

I thank you all for you support and information, and you patience as well...
Stay tuned....

Maurice

11. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

I was counting on the hyper loop having 1.25" pipes feeding it (supply and return) and connecting them, for the hyper loop itself I used some adapted published data from the manufacturer.

12. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

I am sending the installer a very kind letter asking for the technical details of the loop...
Hopefully I will not have to float it to find out exactly how it was made.

Are you saying the a Hyperloop is manufactured and brought on site?

In my case they built the whole thing right there on the grass, every joint, header and all, was done on site, a bunch of pipes Zip tied to a steel fence. Then floated to its final resting spot.

13. ### arkie6Active MemberForum Leader

It sounds like you have a regular site built pond loop. I'm not sure why they are calling it a Hyperloop.

This is a Hyperloop: http://tevaenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/hyperloop_brochure_20120906_web.pdf

14. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

Do you have pictures?

15. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

Here are a few pictures of the loop making and the trench...
Still waiting on the loop specifications from the installer

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16. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

Not sure what it is, but it is not a hyper loop. Running 25 circuits in parallel makes me question if they get the air out, and have enough if any turbulent flow.

Any idea what the size of the pipe and the material is they are using? (for the 25 runs in parallel).

17. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

I am still waiting on the specifications... I am not sure of getting them, will look into my legal options for getting the information.

I do not think there is 25 circuits, if I remember correctly there is only four connection to the header. I remember them saying they should be using rigid pipe to make the header, because the rolls were bending all over.

If the runs to the house is 1.5" the loop pipes look like 1" in the first 2 pictures, no idea what material is. Are there any markings on pipe?
I may be able to peel back the insulation in the house and find out.
I am absolutely certain its not regular well pipe, the walls were very thick, and were heat sealed.

They "burped the loop last fall, 600\$... I was there and when he was done there were no more bubbles in the water, not sure they had a screen but its a closed loop, so probably not an issue. The cart had a submerged out put, the water was clear of bubbles when he was done, then he burped the second flow center... I dont think there is much air in the loop, both flow centers run quiet.

At this point I am no longer sure that the whole design is very efficient, they made their profit and have now abandoned me.

Questions: Delta P is the pressure difference between the incoming and outgoing water measured at the P/T ports at the Heat pump?
Same with Delta T for temperature?

18. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

When the installer was telling me he was stopping the servicing he sent me a copy of his Manual J calculations as an argument to why rthe system failed. I also had a door blower test done before he did his calculations.

I would like to compare his recommendations with the wisdom of this forum...
Anyone interested in taking up this challenge?

19. ### docjenserWell-Known MemberIndustry ProfessionalForum Leader

Sure. We take the challenge.

Kind of an odd design for the loop, hard to see on the picture if the circuits are in parallel or in series. But I count 25 pipes laid out about 10 inches apart.

20. ### Maurice SabourinNewbie but learning quicly...

I will start a new thread for the design of the system.
I will put in all the information they got.

that way we dont mix up this thread with the new one. Where should I start the thread?