Ontario 5 ton Geo running 24/7

I will have to check the pipe sizes, if the original installer decides to cooperate, i will get the exact design parameters of the loop and other specs. As of this morning i still have not heard from him.

Thank you DocJenser

The geofinity flow center is the original flow center installed that was to pump for both the 5 ton and the 2 ton. The was another variable speed pump installed on one side of the 5 ton. they took that off and added the other flow center to the 5 ton.

I should receive the pressure gauge on Thursday.
I will be able to take all the measurements necessary to figure out and eliminate all factors that do not cause the 24/7 running and try to figure out exactly why this system is running all the time.

 

So we have no lockouts, no evidence of freezing, the loops are HDPE (or hyper loop). Maurice is not being helped by being ask questions which are not relevant to his problem, nor is he being helped by answering questions nobody has asked.

The unit runs too much without shutting off, even on warmer days, which points to a lack of capacity. The system ran OK before. Given that the temps so far look OK, that points to low refrigerant. To verify this one sticks temp and pressure gauges in the P/T port,, and see if the heat extraction is OK. If not there is something wrong with the refrigerant circuit. Likely low refrigerant. Now you put refrigerant gauges on, if low, add some R-410a. Measure heat extraction again. If now normal, you sit down and have a beer with Maurice.

Instead we are on page 5 here....

Now, there are other design issue which will significantly reduce the efficiency of the unit(s), but so far should not effect the heat capacity of the unit, which is the issue here.

 

I would have manifolded the pond loops at the shore. Then off to the house in bigger pipe.

What did I miss is all this in PVC?

Pumping opinions are like_______.

 

When I saw Maurice has had this problem since last year and no one was helping him, I tried to generate some interest.
I'll sit back and watch for now.

 

Yep, pumping is important.
If someone puts 800 watts of pumping power on a 2 ton system when 80 watts would do it, that someone tells me that he is challenged with GSHP system design. A 2ton dual stage unit usually runs 85% in 1st stage, consuming 600-700 watts in cooling, and around 1000 watts in heating mode. Now you are adding this enormous pumping power, without the need, just because the installer did not understand the physics of hydronic applications, and have your customer pay for that for the life of the system.
But I recall that you dismissed the importance of efficient flow design and pumping efficiency before....

 

I never dismissed anything, that was your inference.

 

Then forgive me for inferring your blank line incorrectly.

 

You are forgiven. Try not to talk for me again.

 

So maybe you could enlighten us what you meant by "Pumping opinions are like_______." in the context of the posts above. And indeed you dismissed the importance of efficient flow design and pumping efficiency in other threads before.

 

I will not enlighten you. Think as you will.

 

I did, and I took it as a dismissal of emphasizing on pumping efficiency and low pressure drop design.

 

Here are some numbers i took this morning

I turned off the 2 ton and shut off valves, no flow it going to the 2 ton

I turned on the 5 ton, call for 68F, outside temp is 32F.

Compressor amps at first stage: 9.7A
after 15 or 20 minutes run

RA*F 66.4, SA*F 85.6
WI*F 37.1F, WO*F 33.2F
WI# 17, WO#14

I also measured them at the flow center, this flow center has P/T ports.

WI*F 36.5F, WO*F 32/4F
WI# 2, WO#21
Found these pressures odd!!!!


I then reversed the valves, shut off the 5 ton and turned on the 2 ton.

call 65F

Compressor amps at first stage: 6.4A
after 15 minutes run



RA*F 61.2, SA*F 77.2
WI*F 37.8, WO*F 35.4F
WI# 16, WO#10

this flow center does not have P/T ports.

thank you every one, let me know if you require more numbers.

Maurice

 

OK, do you have the installation manual? We need the pressure drop table to figure out to how much flow the 3 PSI (please confirm that those are PSI and not ft/hd) correlates to. Do you know just by chance the glycol concentration. I would assume 25%? If you don't have the manual, can you remind me of the model # of the heat pumps.

How are the numbers for delta T if unit runs in second stage? Plus the amps?

37F EWT on the loop looks excellent, your pond is not too cold.

 

h

I have the manual, but I am not sure of the table you are looking for. the heat pumps Nordic R series

R-25-HACW-P-1T-C-SDERF-07 for the 2 ton
R-65-HACW-P-1T-C-SDELF-07 for the 5 ton

yes pressures are measured in PSI

. Glycol are for i think -20 i think!!!. I was sure the pond was not too cold...

I will run the numbers for stage 2 this evening.

Maurice

 

5 Ton Flow Center: Water IN from loop is 2 psig due to measuring at the pump suction. Water Out is on the return pump discharge at 21 psig.
The numbers are in the correct direction.

Nordic Manual: Pressure Table Page 37 Approximate Flow Rates - 5 Ton 10 gpm, 2 Ton 11 gpm rounded to nearest whole number.

Closed Loop 15% Methanol at 32 degrees F

http://www.nordicghp.com/wp-content...0MAN-06-ISSUE-02-R-Series-Two-Stage-R410a.pdf

 

More numbers.
5 ton stage
amps 13.33


RA*F 67.2, SA*F 89.0
WI*F 39.0, WO*F 33.3F


FYI, asked earlier, pipe size coming in from the loop. 1" id.

i am using glycol, not methanol.
i think to -20 degrees.. cant remember...

 

Measure

 

The Table assumes 15% Methanol.
I only saw one table for a closed loop system, so there must be tables in the industry to account for the difference in type and percent of antifreeze actually used.

You could use a calculator to get fractions of a gallon flow rate/exact numbers, but I chose to round to the nearest whole number since we aren't setting the orbit of a rocket or calculating the Estimated Critical Position for control rods in a Reactor.

 

What i need is something to say to the installer so i seem to know what I am talking about.
Bad loop or low refrigerant and the numbers to back me.

 

Maurice
You are getting down to the nitty gritty and I commend you for "rolling your sleeves up" on this. At this point we can not speculate and will need specific and accurate data.

You need to verify and specify *C or *F. Here is why-

IF you are correct AND it is PGlycol AND it is protected to -20F (~45% concentration), your heating capacity would be reduced by ~20% and the pressure drop correction factor would be ~1.7 compared to pure water for calculating actual flow.

Now that is just scary. Do you mean 1 in 1 out both 1" nominal exiting foundation to the pond? HDPE SDR11?