Ontario 5 ton Geo running 24/7

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Maurice Sabourin, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Pictures would help.

    Check valve is between flow center and heat pump?

    Two probes can indicate 2 different temps, measuring with 1 probe for in and out temp would be the way to go.

    Please get a needle thermometer and a needle pressure gauge to measure in your PT port.

    Please post the written reports you have.

    Taking the numbers for granted so far, everything above 30F is good loop temp, and 4F delta T suggests good heat extraction in 1st stage assuming that the flow is OK.

    Check that the compressor is still running once it reaches set point, not just the fan.
     
  2. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...

    o


    ok Doc, thank you.
    The check valves are between the flow center and the heat pump for both systems.

    I will get, temp and pressure needle gauges, I will also get an amp meter for my multi meter...
    I will post all the reports I have on this system...

    what kind of pictures would you like?

    thank you
     
  3. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Take some pictures of the mechanical room....heat pumps, flow center, piping, ductwork etc
     
  4. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...

    here are some picture of the mechanical room.

    First picture is the flow center for the 2 ton unit, the actual unit can not be see, it behind the stone wall where the grey electrical box is.

    the second picture is the 5 ton unit, with its flow center, this unit also runs a desuperheater to a second hot water tank... notice the 2 flow center are not the same... why? Also the 5 ton flow center casing is metal, and its starting to corrode from the glycol, the valves all have metal handles that are also corroding.

    the third picture is of the one acre pond, as you can see it is not completely frozen, we have had temperatures of -22f and there was still open water where the spring comes out of the ground.

    if anyone would like other specific pictures, please let me know.

    I have ordered the tools for checking the pressure, temperatures in the Petes ports and an amp meter to measure the current of the compressors. I should be getting them next week.

    the season is almost over, i am afraid this problem will not be solved again this winter...
    I will only have a month or so next fall to get it fixed, after that the parts/labor warranty is over...
     

    Attached Files:

  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What model number is on the circulation pumps for the 2 ton and the 5 ton?

    26-99 or 26-116?
     
  6. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Maurice,
    There appears to be plenty of room in the ceiling for a return line surge tank, and a space on the floor below the 5 ton flow center for a return tank volume. Either one will accomplish continuous air removal, a place to monitor level for loop status/health, and a place to make up for loop losses.

    On the 5 ton unit flow center, I would have run the pipes to the unit maintaining the same level below the flow center rather than going back up to the same height at the wall entry. Plus I like to have the flow center next to the unit. I used flexible hoses from the flow center to the unit since it was only 3 feet. This keeps the unit vibration from transmitting into the loop pipe.

    I noticed the hot water heating lines on the 5 ton unit for summer water heating. That's a nice option to have plus it will help shorten your payback period. Do you use it in the winter as well? I only operate my hot water heating system during the cooling months.

    Maurice, I'm confident that we will identify your two issues within the next week and you'll have the system running like new.
     
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No offense, but none of the comments you make here actually help to get to the root of the problem.
     
  8. jk96

    jk96 Member

    Not trying to hijack this thread but why would you not use your desuperheater during your heating cycle as well?
     
  9. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Maurice

    This has gone on too long without satisfaction. You should contact Maritime Geothermal the manufacturer of your Nordic HPs before your warranty expires. Normally, the manufacturers rely on the installer or dealer to handle warranty issues. The manufacter can not warranty installation issues. That is the installers responsibility.

    Some where during this ordeal you have lost faith in your installer or he has become unresponsive. Maritime Geothermal should have a vested interest in this, where an unsatisfied customer is a bad advertisement. I would think they at least could put you in touch with a competent technician that is very familiar with their equipment to do a proper diagnoses.
     
  10. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...

    I will find out on the weekend, I am away from home for the moment.
     
  11. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...


    Thank you for the comment.
    My intention is to right to the owner/installer this morning and see whet the next step is... and I will write to Maritime Geothermal and see how they will respond.

    The season is almost over, and the problem will go away until next fall...
     
  12. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That should not mean that you cannot diagnose a problem and document it. Again, find out wheat the heat extraction is for each unit, that tells you if the refrigerant circuit is OK. You can also do this in warmer weather.

    Everything is downhill from there.
     
  13. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Maurice has ordered what he needs to measure pressure across the heat exchanger, so he is in a hold pattern until he can take the readings for you.

    Maurice and I have a conversation going in another area, where he had asked me some questions. When I saw the pictures I added my advice without thinking in the high stress Trouble Shooting section.

    I'll try to keep the non-trouble shooting advice in the friendly discussion area.

    Thanks doc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  14. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Since you asked, jk96 I'll answer your question, even though it doesn't relate to trouble shooting and won't help Maurice solve his heating issues.

    Myself and other "Do it Yourself" Geothermal owners have problems in the North heating our homes with the tonnage that is perfect for cooling our homes.
    So why divert the heat to our water heaters when we are experiencing a shortage of BTUs for the house.
    The water heater does fine on 220vac with a timer to help reduce costs for hot water in the winter.
     
  15. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...


    I have received a reply from Maritime Geothermal, I will keep you posted...
    Thank you
     
  16. jk96

    jk96 Member

    Well understood and makes sense. Thanks. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. Oversized system that never leaves 1st stage heat or uses aux so I didn't think about the BTU shortage.
     
  17. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    jk96,
    You're in a great position to be in.

    Can you add some load to your unit like include the basement, or a garage in addition to the hot water heating?

    When the local "Pros" took some cheap shots by saying my Unit was oversized, I told them if that turned out to be the case, I would heat and cool the basement in order to give the unit a longer cooling period for humidity removal in the cooling season.

    I couldn't see how a unit could be oversized during the heating season, until you brought up this point, a 2 stage unit that never needs the 2nd stage.
    If you have been away and come home to a cool house and raise the thermostat 4 degrees above set point, does the compressor kick in the 2nd stage?
     
  18. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...

    So far my conversation with the engineer at Maritime Geothermal seems to take us to a low refrigerant level.
    If i understand correctly, this means removing the refrigerant and weighing it to see if it matches the weight on the spec plate of the system.
    I also understand that this is uncommon for a new system...
     
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That would make sense, but how does he know? And why did they exchange the thermostat twice?

    It takes 2 minutes to measure the temp delta on the water side, and measure the flow. Then you know if the heat extraction is OK, meaning if you have enough refrigerant or if you have to check your refrigerant circuit further.
     
  20. Maurice Sabourin

    Maurice Sabourin Newbie but learning quicly...

    I would think that a HVAC technician would know that, and eliminated it from the start.

    The last report from from the technician reads like this:
    "heat pump unit not operating properly" Checked operating parameters of unit. Pressure drop across coax good. Ran both units and pressure drop across each goes to 2psi. Evaporator and condenser temperatures meet chart. Amperage readings meet charts as well. (32*f- chart-20*f evap - unit 20.6. water temp difference 5*f unit 4.5*F. Cond. temperature - 99*F - unit 98*F. Air temp difference 24 unit 22.)

    RA*F 65.4, SA*F 87.6, WI*F 35, WO*F 30.5, WI# 38, WO# 33.5

    Maurice
     

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