Ontario 5 ton Geo running 24/7

Sure it does. Air bound flow is like closing a ball valve. You can show a very nice delta P, allowing formulation showing a pie in the sky GPM, but if you are only pissing a pencil width of fluid how can you move any heat?

Maybe Maurice's loops speak French?

 

So lets suggest that Maurice sink his heat exchanger and remove the air in his loop, then tell us the results in the form of Delta Ts and Delta Ps.
Then we go from there, on to the 3rd and last problem on the Freon side. That will require a person Certified to handle Freon.

The Freon issue gets fixed and Maurice is a happy geothermal owner again.

 

The last test I ever make is refrigerant charge.

 

Maurice's loops speak the global language of physics and math. If the flow is off like closing a ball valve the heat pump will lock down. The medium inside the heat exchanger, wether it is fluid or air, or a combination, will go below 15F within seconds, and the heat pump will shutdown immediately, and not run 24/7 as this thread says.

If the refrigerant circuit would be functioning properly, and there is air in the water, and there is "only pissing a pencil with of fluid", it the refrigerant still would remove the same amount of heat from the heat exchanger, it does not know what is in the other side, meaning that the remaining fluid would get even colder and your delta T would increase quickly and go up quiet a bit, but it obviously does not.

Certainly the next test you make is the refrigerant charge, once you know the heat extraction is off and the compressor is running in the right stage and drawing the correct amount.

This is basic heat pump 101, not french, not rocket science.

Heatpumps are designed to move a certain amount of heat, from A to B. They need a certain medium, either water mix or air, to be the source, and then add the compressor heat (=energy to do the work) and must reject the extracted heat and the compressor heat together to the load.
No matter what is in the heat exchanger, wether it is water or air, or not moving, the refrigerant circuit will suck out 36-37000 BTUs per hour out of the source coil in a 5 ton nordic heat pump.
If it is air (which has much less heat stored in the same volume as water) or not moving water it will last a few seconds until the heat pump shuts down, if it is water without the correct supply of fresh warm water, it will last a few seconds more until it freezes or the safeties kick in. If you have lesser flow then the given capacity calls for (or lesser density in a water to air mix) the exiting water will be colder, e.g. your delta T goes up. All this is not happening here, it is the opposite.

The only explanation is that the heat extraction is off, which is confirmed by the measurement so far. 2 psi delta P equals about 7.5 gpm flow x 6.1 gpm x 485 = 22,188 BTU. Off by about 40% at 32 F EWT.
Again, if you would get errand readings, and there would be air in the water coil to the point that there is no flow or very minimal flow, the delta T would jump up (minimal flow) or the heat pump would shut down quickly (no flow or not enough flow), not run 24/7.

 

Gee I wish I could see through pipe.

I do enjoy your ability.

 

Once you understand that the refrigerant circuit moves a certain amount of heat when running, independently of flow (to a certain minimum degree), which a quick peek into the published expanded performance tables of each manufacturer would tell you, and lock at the variables how heat transfer is defined (flow x delta T x factor), that understanding is your view through the pipe.
Or you have trouble shut a few hundred of them, and you do it out of intuition. Both methods work.

 

Doc:

Where is the heat going to go without a vehicle to carry it. WATER. Definitions doe not mean anything if the system does not know the language.

The only way a refrigerant system can move heat is to have a place to move the heat to. If there is no flow there is no heat transfer.

The only way your thesis will work is if the refrigerant system is undercharged.

I do not trouble shut any thing. I have training, tools 40 years of HVAC field work, so I look at a system as a whole and since I know how it is supposed to work, I go find out why it is not working. Only when I am sure I know the only reason a system is not working do I fix the error. Your follow the book approach will lead to possible overcharging the refrigerant. Swim out and listen to the loops. Air makes noise when mixed with water.

With out air in the pipe HDPE is buoyancy neutral. The picture to the left of this text
is loaded at the factory with dry nitrogen. So if you can see the loops they have air in them and not enough weights.

I await my next lecture and lesson.

 

I do not question that there is air in Maurice's loops. But if the amount of air would be significant enough to affect the supply of heat to the heat pump, the heat pump would shut off, not run 24/7.
Try starting up a water source heat pump without water, what would happen?
Try throttling down you water flow, the output will decrease only slightly, and the delta T will get larger, meaning you would take more and more heat out of the water, until the leaving water would be so cold that the heat pump would lock down (usually below 15F). It will do this even much quicker the more air and lesser water you have in there, since air is much less dense that air and can carry less heat per mass unit.

Maurice's heat pump has a place to move the heat (the air side) where it delivers less heat, meaning the heat transfer capability of the refrigerant circuit is affected, not the supply of heat on the source. It could take more heat out of the water, even with bubbles in it, and increase the delta T, but it does not!

I am not saying that I know what is wrong with the refrigerant circuit (compressor, expansion valve, refrigerant level etc), all I am saying that the issue can only be a malfunction of the refrigerant circuit causing it to not run at full capacity.

I realize that you do not trouble shoot anything. But a simple look at the heat extraction allows you to zoom into the refrigerant circuit as the issue here.

"Where is the heat going to go without a vehicle to carry it. WATER." Again, heat is not going there in heating mode, it is coming from there. If you have less flow, it will take more heat (degrees, delta T) out of it. The total amount of heat removed remains (almost) the same. It does not do that in this case! Thus the system which transfers the heat from the water to the air, called the refrigerant circuit, is faulty.

Again, this is heat pump 101. I am surprised that with all your tools, your training and your 40 years in the field we are having this discussion....

 

We speak different languages.

I am not forced to do or think what you would have me do or think.

I have been doing this in real time for almost forty years. I am amused by your authority and ability to know what I know by typing here. It is unclear to me why you demand that I change my language and communication standards. I will not change for you.

You are dropping into bad thinking.

You see only the refrigerant charge as THE issue.

I would have you re-read your rant with the possibility of low flow and not enough gas.

What is your EPA ticket number?

 

Somewhere waaay back at the beginning, I suggested to check the refrigeration circuit. And I don't think that has been done. The thread has turned into the equivalent of a political argument.

But, I'm willing to learn, I have a question. How do you take a 50,000 btu heat pump and make it 20,000 btu without the refrigerant circuit being the issue?

 

Yes, you and others suggested the same. But I did not want to pull other in here...unless they want to.
The main reason for getting into the argument is that others are here to learn too, and guys like Maurice have been hurt enough by installers creating issues. The last thing he needs is a lot of noise by individuals lacking some understanding and not being guided in the right directions.

 

Not only the language is different...

I said
"I am not saying that I know what is wrong with the refrigerant circuit (compressor, expansion valve, refrigerant level etc), all I am saying that the issue can only be a malfunction of the refrigerant circuit causing it to not run at full capacity."

I never said the refrigerant charge is the issue for sure, although it would be the first thing I would check, since the amperage drawn by the compressor is within range, and the HP is running in second stage (as mentioned before).

Maurice also has other issues, especially with the loop field, but none of those can create the lack of capacity due to a lack of heat extraction.

I know you will not change. You don't have to. But don't mislead others further who have been presumably served badly by incompetent installers.

 

Hi everyone... New update


I found a tech who will come in and and pull the refrigerant out, do a high pressure test and reload the refrigerant.

He will charge me 6hrs work plus materials if any.

From there he will measure the results to get a baseline

 

Maurice,

first he should measure the current pressures to have a base.

It does not have to be the refrigerant, but it would be #1 on the list. It could also be the compressor, or the valve, or other things with the refrigerant circuit. Or the unit not going into second stage. But refrigerant amounts would be highest on my list.

We found that sometime the valves, where the refrigerant gauges connect, loosen up.

Have him also measure the heat extraction/rejection.

Just some thoughts.

 

I would ask for new refrigerant to go back in, not reuse the old.

ChrisJ

 

Maurice,
Have you re-submerged your pond loop yet?
How about the air in your system, have you purged it out by adding a Watts Float Valve vent ($8) for air removal or a well tank for auto makeup to the loop as the air is vented?

 

Hi everyone. Sorry for being away so long...
UPDATE.
I contracted another company to come a look at the Geo, in less then 2 hours he had found a refrigerant leak in the evaporator. The manufacturer as sent a replacement and it will be installed next week.
I will keep you posted on how the unit will be functioning then.

Thank you every one for your help.

 

Maurice,
How did your pond Heat Exchanger and other issues turn out?

 

So were are finally addressing the issue with the refrigerant circuit.

 

I have added weights to the lines running to the loop, sank them good.
There is still a glycol leak on the 2 ton unit, a small leak, but a leak just the same, once the evaporator could is replaced, the new evaporator is installed, the tech will have to purge the loop, hopefully we can tackle the leak at that time.

This whole system is still under parts and labor warranty, but I doubt the original installer will admit to his incompetence and refund me for the labor costs I will incur .