Kansas 2 ton vertical loop

As you see in the table, at 80F EWT, the pressure drop at 1.8 psi indicates about 6 gpm flow. You have about 2 PSI, so your flow through the unit is OK. That still does not mean that your flow through the loop field is OK. Again, size and length of header pipe, size of pipes in the borehole? That will tell us if one of the loops is air locked.
The typical case indicating the disadvantages for pressurized flow centers!
PS: ft/hd= psi x 2.3 It is just another measure unit for pressure.

Also, you rely your judgement on sensors which accuracy you have not confirmed!

 

Still waiting on that info. What do you make of the low Water pressure psi numbers?

 

Part of the issue with pressurized systems. The HDPE pipe will expand in A/C season when you inject heat into the loop. Thus pressure drops. As a result dissolved gasses will participate out and form air bubbles. Thus the judgement is still out wether one of your loops is air locked. This happens all the time, and that is why non pressurized flow centers should be used if one does not want to come back and rep urge the loops over and over again.
Climatemaster wanted to have a plug and play solution, with the circulation pump mounted inside the cabinet. That's what happens when manufacturers trying not only design heat pumps, but whole systems.
Now, I think that there is still an issue with your loop overall, since your temp is shooting up too quick, even if one loop is locked. The second loop should be still much cooler if you have 200ft in the ground.

 

The wells are 200 ft. 14-18 ft of top soil then limestone the next 180 plus ft. With a couple different rocks from black shale, very little sandstone, loops are 3/4,inside piping is 1.25 piping that has 60 ft.

 

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Hello and welcome

 

Hi Bmills,

It sounds like you might be the driller for charr??

 

T

Thanks for the update. This loop field should easily support a 2 ton load, but flow should be much higher than what he reports. Do you know what pump he has? At the end, the high swings suggest that only one loop is seeing flow, my bet is now at the other one being air locked. Any idea what the house load is? Cooling....

 

Yes right at 900 to 1025 Sq.

 

Did not know Bob Mills was posting here so lets go some things straight. This was a job well over 20,000 and yes there is 2500 outstanding. I believe I deserve a working loop and system when you spend that kind of money. 90% of money has been paid for a system that is not working right. And I did think that the drilling and header pit work for the 4 ton loop (no system installed on that one yet) would include flushing the lines. The competitor quote I got said that and usually the header pit individuals do flush the lines as part of the work. Bob did not mention he brought the 47,000 pound drilling truck into my yard when a few inches of snow was melting. We are not talking light damage here. We are talking huge chunks those tires dug and the hydraulic system trying to lift the tires was a mess. There was broken wood from under the tires buried throughout my yard. Truck went over control box for sprinkler and crushed that so that made sprinkler repair much more costly. The landscaping repairs were significant, in the thousands not hundreds. Secondly, that account is very skewed. First off he has not been over 6-8 times. not even close. he did not even know how to check the pressure levels when he came out one time which means he didn't at all look at the manual for flushing this system with an internal flow center. Even today, he flushed the system from the manifold and not the internal ports which is probably fine but he should have at least known those were there. I had a very tight space so my preference was to not use a flow center if possible. I wanted to use the tranquility 30 because what I read it sounded like the latest and greatest system and I wouldn't have to worry about extra space for flow center. It is not like they refused to install this system. Actually, they called the dealer up in Iowa because they thought they could get it for a cheaper price than me since they were a contractor. And orbis/bob charged me $1200 extra dollars to hook it up so they were paid to install the system. The seller did not sell me the wrong thermostat. He was just nice and sent me a new one in case that was causing any problems. Same with a board (board not in yet) in case there was a small chance that is the issue. The motor is rated for 300rpm to 1250rpm and runs at max 1400 rpm at low cfm setting so there is an issue. Orbis did the ductwork so an ecm motor maxing out is more often than not a ductwork issue. But this discussion is about the loop. Bob did come out and flush the loop this morning. psi readings were about 25.5 entering and and about 23.5 leaving when he was done. so those levels and the 2 drops seems good. This is after the system ran for about 20 minutes and most of that time was in second stage at 700 cfm but some of the time was in first state at 525cfm. Both of us agree the system is sized right for the space. The numbers clearly show 86.3 entering water temps and this is only after 20 or so minutes. Temps outside were only in low 80's this morning and we are in Kansas. The one thing we were discussing this morning is the gpm flow. I had the system set on fixed this morning at 90% of max. The thermostat would measure gpm in the 4's but the pressure drop was 2 psi so the thermostat could be a little low on its readings. Or if it is in the 4's gpm vs. 5's gpm should that matter that much in heat transfer. I would think not but perhaps someone on this forum could answer that one.

Look I actually think Bob Mills is a decent guy but his account his very skewed and inaccurate. There are other details I don't have time to post here that would indicate such. But once again, I think they are okay guys but the facts are the facts. A system in Kansas that is not stressed shouldn't be ramping to high 80's entering water temps this time of year. And that wasn't after a very long time. Who knows where it would settle if we had a 95 degree day and it had to keep going for hours. I paid a lot of money for geothermal and I believe I deserve to have it working properly and the contractor is not entitled to 100% of the money before it is working properly. And to boot, I still have a 4 ton loop installed by these guys that I have no idea if it will perform properly because of the issues with the 2 ton. I can't swap out my furnace without any confidence in the loop.

 

And I just want to stress this, that venting is full of inaccuracies. I never said they needed to install another system. I thought they should flush the lines when I had one. Even though I think they are okay guys, you can see some of the stubbornness. I don't want to go to court. I just want them to acknowledge that I have valid concerns instead of dismissing everything and blaming it on the system.

 

I hate when battles erupt here.... Please take it somewhere else. If both parties are seeking understanding and information then this is the place to get both. We try to run a family friendly site. That being spoken by a veteran of the VFD wars. Something is wrong with your system because you are not comfortable. Lets start there, again.
Eric

 

I apologize for that. I just felt the need to respond. I will strictly stick to the issue here. Which really is the poor heat transfer of the loop and what could be causing it. And can a system be responsible for it?

 

A typical case why one should contract out everything to one company, so there is no finger pointing at the end, including the unit. For some reason you did not do that.
Also please understand that manufacturers are designing boxes which they think they can sell. They are not understanding well how to design efficient systems and trouble free operation, like using non pressurized external flow centers. If my customers tells me that I need to put a unit with an internal flow center in, he very quickly becomes a great customer....for my competitor!
Having good access to flow, flushing and purging is so vital to assuring that your system is working fine, it does not belong cramped inside a unit. And do not think that the installation manual is always right!

Again, you are basing everything on numbers you are reading off the thermostat, they might be inaccurate. Get a needle thermometer and measure temp. Your pressure drop indicates 2 PSI and 6+ gpm when your thermostat displays much less. I mentioned this before that you are basing a lot of the discussion on readings off the thermostat.

A couple other things. What Bob tells us here about the loop, it is a fine loop more than adequately sized for a 2 ton heat transfer and flow.
The only 2 variables in heat transfer are your delta T and your flow. Your delta T in and out of the heatpump is all over in the 3 images you have posted here, where as your flow appears constant. Your delta T for the loop appears to be smaller, which is the issue here.

The fluctuations you see in the temperatures might be an issue that the temp sensor is influenced by ambient temperature inside the compressor unit's cabinet, when the unit starts running. You are basing all the temp info you give us and yourself off the thermostat. Those numbers might be highly inaccurate. Get a digital needle thermometer and verify everything.

No, the unit itself cannot cause poor heat transfer in the loop. It can only put a certain maximum amount of heat in the loop, not more, and then the loop is designed to handle this. But false sensor readings can indicate such poor heat transfer, when in reality everything is fine.


When did you start running the loop? How many months ago?

 

I did contract everything out to orbis except for purchase of the unit. They were hired to do ductwork, drill holes, run header pit, flush lines and hookup the system. They were paid to hookup this system. I did no do it myself. Most of the readings you are seeing when I set the unit in fixed mode for flow and at the highest setting I could which is 90 percent. I do think it is odd that it only seems to show readings in the 4s when 90 percent of 6gpm should show in the 5s and the pressure drop indicates a higher flow. I am looking into taking direct temps. I will say though that the readings of this thermostat were similar to the one replaced in winter back in winter but I guess that wouldn't change a bad sensor. The loop started running in late January. There wasn't much of a cold season but when it was cold the entering water loop temps seemed to drop from high 40s to low 30s fairly quickly and then lows 30s seemed to be sort of an eqilibrium point. Now loop seems to start from low 60s and rise quickly. The fact that thermostat reads a good number when unit first starts after being dormant makes it seem like it is accurate but I will get the thermometer that can take those readings directly. Will report back. Thank you. Also if a system were pushing a gallon less per minute than it should could that have a meaningful impact on heat transfer in the loop? It wouldn't seem so and you response seems to indicate no.

 

Can you post pics of your interior piping, like where the flush ports are located in relation to the unit. Non Pressurized systems are great but there is no reason why the vflow should not work perfectly. It actually should be more efficient than a nonpressurized with a conventional pump.

The only thing is that the vflow must be flushed 100%. Depending on the piping lay out, it should most likely be done from the manufacturer provided ports.

It seems that your your installer is educated on Geo just maybe not specifically on this unit.

 

Here are the pics with the manual instructions. It would seem using the flush points on the manifold would be fine but book shows flushing this way. That is only reason I mentioned. Gpm on vflow is on average much lower than fixed at least per tstat.

 

Yes. That is a proper installation. No reason why flushing would be an issue. Did air come out when he last flushed it?

I would look to see if the pressure remains stable. Just dont check it everyday or multiple times a day.

Wait a week and see where it is.

 

Some not much

 

Some air is all it takes to stop flow. I would liked to have Bob flushed the whole system from the ports in the basement.

Mark