2 Loops & 2 Heat Pump quote.

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by rollandelliott, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. rollandelliott

    rollandelliott New Member

    I got the following quote below:
    I have a 4000 sq foot home right outside of Charlotte, NC. I am pretty conservative with my usage of air conditioning and heating, but I'm adding some roomates and I know they will probably tripple the heating/cooling bills. Hence I am looking to Geo.

    The home is 3 stories. the basement and middle level are on a 4 ton heat pump and zoned with ducting in the basement.. the upstairs is on a 2 ton heat pump and is totally seperate with ducting/furnace in attic.. Home built 5 years ago with fiberglass roll insulation throughout.

    I have 2.5 acres of land so I have a lot of space to dig trenches.

    Here are my questions about this quote. the company quoted me two separate systems with two separate loops. Is this the most efficient way to run things? Why not run one bigger loop in parallel with the two geo heat pumps?

    They quoted a 4 ton two stage geo heat pumpfor $6500 and a one state is around $3000 less. How many years does it take the added investment to pay off?

    Thanks for the newbie help!
    [​IMG]
     
  2. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    There is little information here.
    Where is the labor and permit costs?
    Where is the load calculation theat justifies 6 tons for this home?
    Where are installers references?
    Did you get other bids?
    Have you looked at our shoppers checklist?
     
  3. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Whew!

    Thought that was one of my old quotes for a sec:)

    We use to itemize everything like that. Problem was it would get "picked" apart over every $. Now we just show the subtotals for each area, so we don't have to use the clients' copper elbows he found on sale:)

    Anyway, having individual loops does allow you to optimize each "zone". Combining the loops allows you to build in some overlap/redundancy. Internal pumping layout will have to reflect either setup.

    The 2stage/1stage payback is dependent upon your climate and house demands. If you have matching cooling/heating loads then you'd be prone more towards a single stage. Two stage is almost mandatory in climates such as mine.
     
  4. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That number

    is too cheep for my market.
     
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Looks like a DIY kit for material only, no labor.

    Who is putting it in? Who is going to excavate? Who is paying the diesel for the excavator. How about p/t ports, pipe material, hot water tanks, dsh piping etc etc
    Now labor, overhead costs and a small profit.

    I would not touch a 6 ton 2HP system for under $32K turnkey. It does not help me that I break even if everything goes well. Nor does it help the customer when I am broke in 1 year, and he can find someone new who warranties and services his system for him.

    Maybe you could elaborate why you are posting an incomplete equipment quote from an internet retailer here (Buy Geothermal Heat Pumps, Goodman Heat Pump, Goodman Air Conditioner online) and try to get comments from installers. All you get for that money is a few boxes on your curbside. Don't forget to add shipping!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  6. ACES-Energy

    ACES-Energy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Just got called to a residential new build that the homeowner started down this path, actually placed the order for an online DYI. After a site visit, he quickly canceled his order....not the best way to proceed. That quote is missing all sorts of misc. materials and installation equipment, not to mention start-up testing equipment, purge cart, and most importantly knowledge or proper installation!
     
  7. rollandelliott

    rollandelliott New Member

    It is a DIY quote I got. I am posting it here because according to the forum title "Help with selecting your design team and contractors." that is what this forum is for getting advice.

    I am aware that labor , trenching, piping will add lots of $$$ to the quote, I am just exploring this option and trying to get a rough idea of economical payoff time.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  8. rollandelliott

    rollandelliott New Member

  9. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Trying to learn

    You need to separate the mechanics of installing a system vs. the design of a system in your learning. Yes, installation may seem approachable to most DIY's, but "what to put in" can be very confusing.

    Don't ask us about the "what to put in" when we don't know your requirements.

    Are you asking us to design you a system? Or to verify another design that you want to post?

    Frankly, you will get resistance to DIY queries because we deal with that weekly. And we are always having to justify the complexity of these systems and the importance of design.

    My company does design for DIY. It is a flat rate we charge for most residential systems.

    If it is then required, we charge time and materials for helping the home-owner put it in afterwards. It is quicker and cheaper for us to take this all on ourselves under an original contract, but we won't get in the way of a home-owner wanting to learn.

    You can build your own roof trusses as well. What kind of nails should I use is a lot different of a question than load angles.

    Maybe hire a company to do your design for you? Not the one that is selling you the equipment.
     
  10. rollandelliott

    rollandelliott New Member

    wow I think I stepped on a hornet nest here.

    it was a basic question from someone who is planning to hire a contractor, no need to think that your comrades might miss out on a job.

    I have my own business/company too and give out free advice all the time. Some of my competitors keep every detail under lock and key as if every customer was an enemy looking to learn the trade secretes and Do it themselves or worse become their competitor.

    Maybe you never realized this, but customers dont' like being treated that way.

    Regards, Rolland
     
  11. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Basic Question

    Ok. Tell me where your basic question was?
     
  12. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Roland,
    Diy,

    If you put all the tonnage on one loop system and you have a circulator or loop issue you lose heat or cooling for the whole house. If you seperate the two you won't have all your eggs in one loop.

    Single stage vs. two stage. The two stage units cover the disparity between the heating load and the cooling load. You may need only single stage heating but need two stage heating. I am not sure if there is an issue short cycling the unit in heating, but if you short cycle the cooling you will not remove the humidity and your comfort may suffer.

    Hope this helps
    Eric
     
  13. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Rolland,
    I asked you questions- the answers to which would help me answer yours.
    No hornets nest.
    j
     
  14. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We give free advise here all the time, also to DIYs, that is the whole purpose here. But you seem to get quotes on DIY without any further knowhow about geo systems. That knowhow takes quite some time to acquire, especially with a more complex 2 heatpump system and without any installation equipment.
    You are setting yourself up for a very steep uphill battle.
     
  15. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not interestred in helping me help you?
    You throw the suggestion that we're concerned with our "comrades" getting your work, yet ignore my questions repeatedly.
    It must be difficult to detect help while insulting your helpers.:confused:
    j
     
  16. rollandelliott

    rollandelliott New Member

    Sorry didn't mean to offend. This board has some kind of moderation feature where the first few posts of any new member must be approved hence the delay.

    I think the other posters answered my questions pretty well. thanks this gives me some knowledge so when I get more quotes I will be more educated to ask better questions. Any 40K investment requires some preliminary research.

    thanks again!
     

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