Climatemaster closed loop air coil leak

[Don Pecka]

We built a new house in 1995 and had a climatemaster closed loop geothermal heat pump installed. Our installer indicated that the systems are trouble free and were well worth the initial money spent and would pay for itself in lower energy costs. In 2008 the air coil(same as evaporator coil, right?) was froze up because of low freon. Our installer discovers that the air coil has freon leaks. He convinces us that the repair cost would be quite high and that we may be better off installing a whole new more efficient unit. So in March 2008 we have installed a new Climatemaster Genesis GSV042 unit. In Jan 2012 I feel like the heat pump is running more than it used too. I check the discharge air temp and it is about 8 deg less than it used to be. Now I understand that there is a lot more parameters that need to be considered but I used this as an indicator that I need to get our installer out to get a good check done. Our installer does a complete check and has to add freon because of a freon leak in the air coil. In LESS THAN 4 years the air coil is leaking. Our installer is very reputable. He has told me numerous times that Climatmasters are trouble free and he has had one installed in his office for 25 years and never touched it. But......I am totally disgusted at this point and wish we would went with a conventional heating and cooling system. Is this typical of Climatemasters? Have they had known manufacturing defect issues? Now I am afraid that I will be responsible for a bunch of repair labor costs and who knows what other expense. When it does get fixed I have a repaired system thats been 'opened' up and not the nice clean system that was supposed to last 25 yrs. Was I sold a bad product when I was sold a Climatemaster???

[AMI Contracting]

I have not experienced frequent coil leaks on CMs I've installed. Are there any contributing conditions?

[Don Pecka]

No unusual conditions, that is what's so frustrating. Its a residential house. The coil just sits there and air blows thru it. Quit frankly, I think the air coil was bad coming from the factory. I wish I would have had the installer do a leak check immediately after installation. I might add that the air coil had the 'E-Coating' which was supposed to enhance the corrosion resistance. I believe it is epoxy powder coating. Now I wonder if the purpose of the E-coating is corrosion resistance or to seal up small leaks that were being experienced at the factory. So, we are stuck with a system with a poor quality key component. We are now 0 and 2 with Climatemaster heat pumps. Not good!!

[Mark Custis]

Are you sure that it is the coil that is leaking? How do you know? Has your tech/installer checked the service ports for leaks before attaching his manifold gauges?

[Don Pecka]

The 1st thing that the tech/installer checked was the coil. Probably because all he had to do was remove the air filter. I watched as he moved his leak detector around the coil and it sounded the alarm in an area toward the middle of the coil. I thought that was unusual. I would have thought that it would have been in a bend of a tube or at a connection that had been sweated/welded. I did not watch him do any other checking with the detector. I was hoping it was a service port. I am not familiar with freon. Is it heavier than air? Does it rise? Is it possible that the leak could be somewhere else, say lower in the unit like a service port, and the freon was somehow migrating up to the coil and giving a false location?? This may be farfetched but I somehow hope it isn,t really the air coil. And I am considering having the installer check again to confirm the location of the leak. I would have him concentrate on other areas rather that the coil.
I was billed for 1 1/2 Lb(24 oz) of R22. Factory charge is 70 oz. That is in about 4 years. Rather than repairing and opening the system to contamination, would I be better off just having the system checked every 2 years and freon added as needed?? Is 1 1/2 Lb freon loss in 4 years excessive?

[engineer]

I would want a leak free coil

Proper techniques ensure minimal risk of contamination via repair.

Conventional central airconditioners are no less vulnerable to coil leaks. They are relatively rare in newer equipment, but they do happen.

[HVAC Technician]

The 1st thing that the tech/installer checked was the coil. Probably because all he had to do was remove the air filter. I watched as he moved his leak detector around the coil and it sounded the alarm in an area toward the middle of the coil. I thought that was unusual. I would have thought that it would have been in a bend of a tube or at a connection that had been sweated/welded. I did not watch him do any other checking with the detector. I was hoping it was a service port. I am not familiar with freon. Is it heavier than air? Does it rise? Is it possible that the leak could be somewhere else, say lower in the unit like a service port, and the freon was somehow migrating up to the coil and giving a false location?? This may be farfetched but I somehow hope it isn,t really the air coil. And I am considering having the installer check again to confirm the location of the leak. I would have him concentrate on other areas rather that the coil.
I was billed for 1 1/2 Lb(24 oz) of R22. Factory charge is 70 oz. That is in about 4 years. Rather than repairing and opening the system to contamination, would I be better off just having the system checked every 2 years and freon added as needed?? Is 1 1/2 Lb freon loss in 4 years excessive?

==================================

I am working on a small leak on my own unit. My 2008 Carrier / Climate Master uses R-410a, a very high pressure refrigerant. EVERYTHING LEAKS! especially if we are using a high pressure refrigerant! eventually. My case is not resolved.

First you have to find the leak: coil ? or heat exchangers ? or safeties ? Second you have to "prove" it to the manufacturer, (and they have exclusions)

By law the government requires you to fix the leak, (although they come down "heavier" on commercial facilities than home owners) Problem is, even if you find it, you have to figure out how to fix it.

A capilliary tube that vibrated against something else can be brazed and repaired after recovering all your refrigerant. An internal leak on a water coil, now that is ugly!

[AMI Contracting]

[QUOTE=HVAC Technician;41101]==================================
By law the government requires you to fix the leak, (although they come down "heavier" on commercial facilities than home owners) QUOTE]

Have they "come down" on anyone since the Homestead AFB demo?

[engineer]

I don't believe anyone is required to fix any leak on a system containing less than 50 lbs.

[HVAC Technician]

I don't believe anyone is required to fix any leak on a system containing less than 50 lbs.

===========================

All depends on the national and local law and possibly conscience. From my perspective, I attended a 2 hr Trane refrigerant changes seminar in early 2011. The "experts" and voices of God essentially warned 'commercial' and institutions that accounting of how you use refrigerant will be even tighter than before.

EPA is now tracking refrigerant use from the purchased bottle. If the EPA in the US isn't satisfied with your records, they can go after the commercial guys or institutions $5,000.00 a day retroactively for 6 months.

Since I manage commercial, I pushed for and went to IHS commercial refrigerant tracking software, an internet based refrigerant recording system to protect my institution's "backside" and show the EPA that we are complying.

For residential, you are still supposed to weigh what you take out of the system and put in, and it is supposed to be in record form. So you still need the clean recovery tanks and separate burn out tanks and all that for each separate refrigerant gas. Personally, unless a different american president or congress eases some of that regulation it will continue and eventually hit the residential sector.